Banner advertising on the board?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Not at all. I think I and others are treated very fairly and I enjoy the comments of you and others.

Have had several people tell me they do not want to post here because of one person.

Also, if you live in NYC I would like to take you to dinner some night.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- that is a very kind offer, but let's take it off the board. Yes, I live in downtown Brooklyn. Regards, Barry

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Posted By: Josh K.

"I'll put knowledge up against almost anyone."

Jay - I dont think the previous post was questioning your knowledge - it was questioning what you choose to do with it. Personally, I think its a valid point as you tend to stir the pot (which is fine by me) more than you tend to share knowledge or post topics that might allow the rest of us to gain a fraction of that knowledge.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

a point to your comment about links to auction houses opening a can of worms....there's links that have been here for a LLLLOOONNNGGG time to auction houses, grading companies, and other commercial sites. If you mean putting them in a more conspicuous place, I'd agree but they've already been here. I think the way they are listed doesn't really advocate one over the other. Pretty fair and balanced as O'Reilly would say........

I would echo Leon's sentiments about Rob and some of the other guys that lurk a little more than post. If there's something you can chime in on, we'd all welcome more of that......

Leon....when you wind up taking all those ad dollars and buy a 100 foot yacht, we'll all be expecting to be taken out for a nice cruise.......

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Leon,

My only real concern is whether or not having banner ads will change the board. I don't know if it will or not. It's pretty tough to maintain autonomy when there are sponsors and money involved. Still, I'm not opposed to the idea. I have a few questions about how it would work. I apologize if these have already been addressed as I didn't read the entire thread.

1. How many advertisers were you envisioning? Obviously, the higher the ad rates are, the fewer advertisers. If they are too inexpensive, everyone will have one and it will render all of them virtually useless as an advertising vehicle.

2. How much money were you hoping to generate? I know you mentioned something along the lines of "whatever the market will bear," but this is where it gets tricky. I mean, really if you are looking to get the most possible money, you could do it with one permanent advertiser that pays a huge amount, but then we'd have the MastroNet vintage baseball card board. Or whatever other auction house.

I'm sure you've thought of this and was wondering what you're ideas were as far as finding a balance. Also, have you considered temporary banner ads like Old Cardboard has when an auction house wants to advertise for a specific auction that ends on a specific date, instead of a general advertisement about their company?

Thanks,

-Ryan

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Posted By: chris

hi,

first...thanks for this board and the oppurtunity to share info with other collectors..yes, i do not post much so my opinion may not be as valueable, nonetheless...not sure if this has been mentioned yet, as there over 150 posts...

why not just put a paypal donation logo on the b/s/t and general post board and i guarantee you will get plenty to offset all monetary costs and some toward your time...no need to beat around the bush...it is not a bad thing that you are doing this as a strict business move to capture more profit, otherwise i am confident the above idea would offset most costs as mentioned...the only people with a real problem are the ones(not me) that have been on this board for years.

i am pretty sure that you had nearly every intention prior to opening this dicussion about following through with the banner ads...not really sure why you posed the question..maybe should have just announced it..some are ok with it, most don't care(me), and some don't want it..i would just hope you would limit to only auction houses..no 3rd pary grading,ebay, etc...

that's all..thanks for the read

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Posted By: Doug

Hello, everybody.

My personal (lurker opinion) is this that banner advertising stay off this board.

If the problem is: "The board is costing money, and needs some income to survive." We have two solutions.

#1. Offer advertising.

#2. Ask for donations from the folks who use this board.

Solution #1 is a potential can of worms. While not necessarily being a conflict of appearance, it could certainly give the impression of one. And someone mentioned earlier that once Leon is gone (happy retirement, Leon, but not for 40 years or so, ok?), the next person might not be so noble)

Solution #2 is a lot more viable. Keep donation numbers private, let members know who much more is needed, and do a Net54 drive every year.

Basically, to me, Solution #1 is not necessary, because #2 easily done. Why chance it?

Douglas D.

Edited to ask the question: Could we do a poll . . . "Would you rather see the board continue with advertising (related to our hobby) or private donations?"

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

I think its more than that--you have to pay Leon a meaningful amount of money for his time and efforts.

Advertisers are sophisticated enough to know that board posters will speak their mind and they may be criticized from time to time.

For the life of me, I cannot see why this is an issue.

Jim

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Posted By: Doug

I have no problem with Leon making some cash for all his time and effort on this board. He earns it.

Raises a question . . . could the amount brought in by advertising equal the amount brought in by donations?

Second question . . . could this continue each year?

Doug

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Posted By: Greg

Leon,

First, thanks for all the hard work you do for this site.

I wish I was able to contribute more to this site than I am able to. Unfortunately, since I am pretty new to this hobby and only collect a very specific subject matter, I don't have much to add. Wish I did, but I don't. I've probably posted only a half a dozen times. Wish I had more to add. Hopefully I will in the future. I'm sure there are plenty of others like me on here.

That being said, I do enjoy reading the site as well as the contributions of (most) of the members here. It's a very knowledgable group and, for the most part, a very friendly group.

Having followed this site for a year or so now, I've come to recognize a lot of great people here. There are a lot who love to share there information. There are a lot who enjoy helping others out. There is also just a lot of fun cameraderie to be enjoyed.

I've also come to recognize, however, that there are some individuals on here who seem to take themselves a little too seriously. Worse yet, there are some here with an apparent ego problem that think they are on a higher plateau than others (a true mark of insecurity). Unfortunately, there are times that some even go to the extreme in making or poking fun at others. If others don't agree, I suggest they re-read some of the contributions of late.

What does this have to do with the subject? Not much, other than I give you credit for putting up with the bad that goes along with the good. You should be compansated for it. Maybe it's just me letting some steam out reading some of the posts over the past couple of weeks. I guess if others can just say whatever the heck they want, why can't I...

Anyway, if my vote means anything, I vote in favor of your Banner advertising. If people don't like it, just don't click on it. What's the big deal?

Greg

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Posted By: rhys

First of all, WE ALREADY HAVE ADVERTISING. There is a Luckeycards.com link at the top of the site. I know it may not generate a ton of money for Leon, but it is still advertising. I am not saying this is bad and I dont have a problem AT ALL with this link up there. We also get all the Auction houses posting

MASTO AUCTION NOW OPEN FOR BIDDING etc. etc. etc. about 2-3 times per week from the Auction Houses directly with Leon's permission.

We also have a link section of the site which is FILLED with various advertisers.

Good or bad, we have already gone to an advertising site, just without anyone getting any direct financial gain.



Second Point is in regards to Jay's post. If you truly feel that the posts on this board are a reflection of who is the most knowledgable in the hobby, you are wrong. This forum is a small cross section of the hobby in some regards, but in other ways it is not. There SO MANY advanced dealers/collectors out there who do not post on this forum, or rarely post that have just as much and in many cases MORE knowledge than many of the experts listed. AS A WHOLE this forum is the smartest resource currently available in the hobby. Individually, there is not a single indespensible collector or dealer in this hobby, or even 4-5 that can not be replaced. There are knowledgable people who post on here, there were knowledgable people before them, and there will be knowledgable people after them. Labeling a few people that have various levels of hobby knowledge but post on the forum alot as the "Most Knowledgable People in the Hobby" is a mistake.

Rhys

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Leon,

Since you appear to be leaning towards implementing a banner ad on this site, can you provide us with what you think the price will be for such an ad? Is it a flat fee? Based on traffic?

Thanks

Chris

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Posted By: leon

I have answered almost every question asked since I said I didn't really want to post anymore redundant stuff. We will most likely test 5-6 advertiser banner ad's for free for a few months to see how it goes....If anyone cares to read through my other 10, or so, posts in this thread they will find answers to their questions....I have answered a few privately because I just keep saying the same thing over so maybe I wasn't making myself clear. As far as there being advertising on the board already, I would agree with Rhys on that. I also think Rhys is correct in his thought that we are a very small percentage (maybe 10%?, at most) of the collector base of vintage cards...Thanks for the opinions so far....

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Leon,

I think the underlying question here is how much revenue will be generated from the ads? I am sure you have not gone into this blindly and have came up with a ballpark figure. I think the majority do not have a problem but if it is a significant amount they would like to see some kind of kick back like offsetting the cost of our Nationals get together.

I for one think that there is a possiblity of this ad money being quite significant. I think an answer to this would clear up the matter for alot of people.

Lee

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Suppose the money was significant, although I doubt it. Why is anyone here entitled to a "kickback"?

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Posted By: leon

I already said I planned on

1. Having some kind of fun give away trivia question each month

2. Help sponsor (if not a corporate sponsor like last year..thanks REA..) the National Dinner.

3. Around 2k-3k a month..(not counting the trivia thing I think would be fun, or sponsoring part of the dinner)......maybe more maybe less but that would be a ballpark...I wouldn't want one advertiser dominating the site either.....

wanted to add there will be quite a few start up fees not mentioned...Start a business and you will understand...

regards
leon

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter--I agree.

Leon, you must be planning one heck of a party at the National with real high admission fees if people are asking for a kickback to help defray costs. Am I missing something or are we talking about a $20 buffet at a hotel?

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Posted By: leon

Honestly I don't know what to say about some of the idiotic questions and comments.... Thanks for your understanding....I think most intelligent people get it....

also, last year it would have been all of about $45 ea (all inclusive) if REA didn't step in...

edited to amend the cost...I forgot about the room, drinks etc.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey Leon- I just came up with a great idea! Every time someone poses a question and I know the answer, I'll just say "just send me five bucks and I will tell you which T206 back is the rarest." That might work.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Since I wasnt able to attend the dinner last year - but would have if I had attended the national - I think its only fair that REA send me a check for $26.

Seriously, I agree with Peter/Jim that whatever the ads bring in is none of our business.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I have mixed feelings, like many others do, and understand and agree with folks on both sides. Leon's idea of trying the ads for a few months seems reasonable.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
You owe me half of that 5 bucks, but I will be happy to run the tab up for Dinner at Luger's.....

Be well Brian

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Posted By: barrysloate

Brian- five dollars at Peter Luger's might get you a dinner roll... but they are are delicious onion rolls. For five dollars they will let you watch someone else eat their steak.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
I know 5 bucks won't get you in the door, but like I said, we're running a tab..... Besides it's one of my favorite places so I'll make up the difference. Be well Brian


PS I'm "fixing"(southern word) to throw a nice center cut sirloin on the the grill in about an hour, so I'll be thinking of you.

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Posted By: leon

You misspelled it....it's "fixin'" ....

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Posted By: barrysloate

I can already hear the sizzle. Luger's uses strictly porterhouse cuts, aged in their basement for months until it is covered with mold. But the good kind of mold.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Thanks Leon, I did it on purpose, so others would understand. Of course I also mis splell words all the time, because I skipped typing class in school.


And Barry, You're making me hungry, so I'm firing up the grill....




Be well Brian




PS I can see a nice banner Ad for Luger's on the site,since we have more than a few NYers on the board, but I guess they don't need any extra advertising.....

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jim, don't be a gutless ass. Use my name. I can take it. If your friends that avoid this board are truely scared of me, then they have some serious personal issues they need to deal with that have nothing to do with me. As has been pointed out, this is an internet message board for crisake. How can these friends of your be successful business people if I intimidate them? Doesn't make sense to me.

Many of the people on this board have met. I am generally a very laid back guy, but I have strong opinions and I will back down to be politically correct or try not to hurt someone's feelings. When I talk about another person board this, I name names. If it incolves you, I don't say "this idiotic slab head needs to ..." I say Jim Crandall needs to...

The other thing I am curious about, why would your fellow slabhead friends make this forum any better? I would assume most are like you and couldn't authenticate a card if their life depended on it. If they are looking to gain the knowledge to authenticate cards, then great, ask away. There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers. If they are scared because of they my opinions and attitude towards you, then all they have to do is look at your posts and make sure that they don't come across as a pompous, arrogant ass with more money than card sense.

The problem you and Dorskind have with me is that I call you on your arrogant and pompous attitude and you guys don't like it becuase you are used to having people suck up to you beucase of your money or whatever it is that you have. I won't. Live with it and deal with it becuase I not going away unless Leon bans me.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I agree, we need more slabheads.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Gil loves slabheads.

I knew it.

-Al

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Posted By: Wesley

If putting up a few banners is going to bring more slabheads, I say let's do it.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Then lets do it - slabheads are good eatin, especially the plump ones. How do you like them prepared best? I prefer 'em slowly rendered in their own blubber, wit plenty of basting. And plenty of corn. But started off with several dozen RAW clams, no on the oysters. And plenty of brew.

- just kiddin' - some of my best friends are slabheads, but don't tell Jay, or the Great Wake, or the others.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Nothing much to add, sounds like it's a done deal. I just hope Jay Miller stays. Jay is one of the extremely knowledgeable members who will once in awhile share great tidbits on Old Judges or similar. Jay and Barry rank up there as two of my favs, I'd hate to lose Jay.

I also like the idea of an anonymous poll mentioned above. So when you lock this thread tomorrow Leon, could you add a ~one week poll similar to below? An anonymous voting tally might be interesting now that all sides have spoken.

Banner Advertisements & Net54 VBCF Poll

A) Good Idea, Advertise Away, more than fair compensation for our moderator dude's efforts. This assumes moderator dude won't use proceeds to bid against us

B) No Banner Ads Please, let's keep the forum as it is. Worried it will change the feel of the board, perhaps our moderator dude won't contribute as much on PSA bashing threads because his advertiser is watching, hurts the small business guy keep up with the big guns, why try to wrangle and define what 'fair' compensation is.

C) I Could Not Possibly Care Less, you all need to get a life, freaks.

Best Regards,
Slab Head who can identify the real deal

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jay Behrens,

Boy do you have a warped view of reality. To have the idea that you are actually a draw which brings people to the board is the most ridiculous thing I have heard....and to be paid for your expertise--ha ha ha ha. When multiple people are ridiculing you publicly for your pompous attitude and privately I know its easy to pick out one visible target and blame him. Fine, but I will fight back. I have Leon's support and I am not going anywhere.

I could give a crap what you think about anything and like other people should just ignore what you say. I would but from the time I have been here you have decided to go after me. I tell it like it is is your mantra--guess what--noone cares--you have no common courtesy and act like a boor all the time. Would we ever see Barry strut around and tout his expertise and want to be paid for it--of course not--and that is a guy who actually has some expertise.

Read other peoples posts about you and get real..and get some humility and act like a human being.

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Posted By: Joann

Not about banner advertising, but I think there are two legitimate sides here on the ego thing.

Re Jim: I just read the article in SCD or whatever the PSA magazine is, about Jim Crandell and his collection. I was very impressed - not just with the quality of the collection, but with the passion and dedication it took to put it together. It genuinely changed my views about collecting graded cards, collecting high grade cards in particular, and the occasional accusation that these collectors are in it for the money. Clearly, Jim knows a lot about cards and has great knowledge and love for both the hobby and the underlying sport. The article raised several questions that I have been meaning to email Jim about sometime - like what is your favorite pre-1915 set? Which card was most satisfying to get?

Re Jay: I think Jay is one of the very valuable posters on this board. He has experience beyond his years, and can comment accurately and intelligently on everything from obscure type cards to Indian Chief cards to mainstream tobacco and caramel issues. His goal to have one card of every pre-war MLB player that had a card drives him to the far corners of the hobby, and he relays the knowledge gained there to the rest of us. I, for one, learn a lot from Jay. As to style, I understand why some find it abrasive, but also think that his posts often reflect what others think on both sides. I do admire the courage. It really bugs me when people resort to commenting on income or grammar/spelling in dissing Jay. Clearly he is intelligent. If you watch his posts, you can see that he can instantly throw the switch on grammar and spelling and write perfect posts (as he usually does when someone challenges his intelligence based on job title). As a too-fast typer myself, I don't draw many firm conclusions from minor typos in posts - it's the content that counts.

Point? Well, I'm working on it. Maybe it's that the two have more in common than in opposition. The knowledge and dedication to this hobby in both outweigh the differences in approaches or income. But since this board is about knoweldge and dedication to the hobby, differences that would probably be trivial in another setting or forum are magnified, because the commonalities fade to background.

OK. I'm done. lol. Said my piece.

Joann

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

The commonalities never fade into the background. It is the thread which binds us lurker/poster, learner/expert, slabhead/raw afficianado, Old/young, way, way more. We all spend an unusually large amount of time and energy collecting this stuff in basically similar (to outsiders) ways.

Whoa - what a catch by Chavez! and he doubled the runner at first. Turned a homer into a DP.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Joann- Working on your mediation skills?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

You'd think we were discussing current events

Rob L: Don't worry about the board changing due to who is advertising. I intend to be every bit as much of a cynical, arrogant, opinionated dick as always regardless of whether some banner floats above the list. And I think most everyone else will too.

Barry: You need to come to LA for a real steak; Omaha, filet, finely marinated and expertly grilled over mesquite at my house. I stopped eating in steak houses because none of them can compare to what I can do at home.

Leon: go for it and don't worry about the bitching. No one (and I mean no one) has your patience and perseverence to deal with the disparate personalities and opinions here. You deserve something for what has to be a monumental effort and if there are advertisers out there stupid, er, willing enough to come into this jungle and take our crap and pay for it, they deserve the chance to be publicly ridiculed and humiliated. In fact, I will pledge to take a verbal crap all over each sponsor at least once a month.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Barry- If you take Adam up on his offer, be advised that the So. Cal. version of "mesquite" generally has a higher concentration of Carbon Monoxide

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Posted By: leon

As promised I am going to lock this thread.

Thanks to all for the feedback that I have received publicly and privately, positive and negative. If this world were all of the exact same mindset it would be very boring. I truly hope this will be a good thing in the evolution of the board. I know this board will succeed in the long run, one way or another. There are too many great, passionate, personalities, some of which I enjoy, and some at which I cringe at , for it not to succeed. Every single person I spoke with before hand said there will absolutely be some that are against it. They were right. I had to give everyone, except anonymous folks, their chance to talk about it though. It was just the right thing to do. Some anonymous folks even emailed me privately. Nothing I have seen has made me "not" want to give it a try. At least I can say I am going into this with my eyes wide open. I still have fun all of the time (well, most of the time) and hope to in the future too. I expect NET54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum to be better than ever in the future. Thanks again to all and as always
best regards