Auction Houses and blind bidding

IMO, auction houses and their blind bidding structure create and the perdect environment for shillers and cheats who would bid up their own cards, or someone else's, for whatever reason.

I think ebay provides a safer system for bidding, albeit not ideal.

Total transparency is the only thing that I believe has any chance of legitimizing the realized prices that many pay for high profile items.

I've seen many times an item sell for X amount at an AH and then the same item nosedives on ebay. Why? Well because on ebay you've got a chance to research what happens during bidding. Most recently a member on CU was outed for shilling and item he consigned to an ebay seller, this would be impossible with the current structure of AHs.

Then you have the "no financial recourse" aspect of AHs ... which is a separate, but very significant, issue as well.

I hope we see some government regulation for these AHs as I fear they falsly inflate the prices of many high profile items, thereby hurting the legitimacy of our hobby.

As I've said before, and many have agrees, a little transparency goes a long way.

[familytoad]

Gotta disagree here...

eBAY has become much less transparent over time, each initiative they come up with is fuel for more malfeasance.

eBay isn't reputation based ..at least not in whole. They are only a vehicle for millions of individual sellers...believe it or not, there are millions of users and sellers who have no interest in Sports Cards

As far as Auction Houses that specialize in Sports Cards...they have a pretty finite audience. Obviously, the way they conduct their business directly affects their limited client base. Auction houses have long been the topic of heated discussion on this board. (Maybe even on the CU board) I don't need to remind most of our readers here.

Accusations and shady dealings surely must have hurt those AH that you see in the headlines, but an honest, reputable AH big or small seems to be doing well in this marketplace.
I qualify that statement in that I cannot afford to bid in the bigger AH auctions anyway, but based on what I have seen, I won't be doing so even if I have a windfall.

Reputation that is deserved by the actual customer-focused business practices... not by shiniest catalog/biggest website, that's what wins out for my dollar.

eBay is my least favorite place to acquire cards for my collection. I'm not being hypocritical, because I use eBay due to Sports Card addiction.

[Mrvintage]

I disagree as well.......seems like I've heard this same argument before.......

[Leon]

Paul and I have agreed to disagree on this subject for ...well, forever (which is only a few months since we virtually met ) But what do I know anyway?

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by Mrvintage

I disagree as well.......seems like I've heard this same argument before.......

Originally Posted by familytoad

Gotta disagree here...
eBAY has become much less transparent over time, each initiative they come up with is fuel for more malfeasance.

I agree and this is my whole point. The whole hiding in the shadows bit.

Ebay took a turn for the worse, heading more towards how AHs do things, by making their bidding more anonymous. But at least it's still possible to track activity with a little research. With AHs it's impossible.

Bottom-line is that with AHs you put yourself in a much more vulnerable position, and we've all seen how premium cards go for crazy amounts at an AH only to take a nosedive on ebay.

Is this always the case? Of course not, but you'll almost never see a premium card go for less in an AH than on ebay.

And many people will only sell their premium cards through consignment (onbay or off), so that they can artificially inflate the cards value. The worst scenario is this one, since people get the impression, through VCP, that a card is worth something since all of it's recorded data came from AH sales.

Unfortunately this racket will continue until the law steps in, as when money is involved, some people won't stop until they get caught. Total transparency is the only real weapon against this, albeit far from perfect.

Ultimately, these kind of blind dealings hurt this hobby, and that's what I take issue with.

[honus94566]

Paul, no offense, but can I ask you why your username is "bubblebathgirl"? Just curious.

Also, FWIW, I won an auction on goodwin the other night and my max bid was 1 notch nigher than I won the item for. So, the auction house could have "behind my back" looked at my max bid and bumped the price up to that level, but they did not do that. I agree with what the others have said - the main, larger auction houses in the hobby have a limited customer base, and need to be really really careful. One public mess up and it could do big damage to their reputation.

Originally Posted by honus94566

Paul, no offense, but can I ask you why your username is "bubblebathgirl"? Just curious.

Also, FWIW, I won an auction on goodwin the other night and my max bid was 1 notch nigher than I won the item for. So, the auction house could have "behind my back" looked at my max bid and bumped the price up to that level, but they did not do that. I agree with what the others have said - the main, larger auction houses in the hobby have a limited customer base, and need to be really really careful. One public mess up and it could do big damage to their reputation.

To be clear I'm not necessarily saying the proprietors are shilling the bids (though that's been known to happen) but rather those who consign to them. The same definitely happens on ebay, and in a CU thread a member was exposed for shilling his own auction that was consigned to a well know ebay seller.

But at least on ebay there is some evidence, so that's how this person was exposed. Whereas the offbay AHs provide no info on the bidders, and therefore shillers can run rampant if they choose.

[drc]

I think consignors bidding or getting associates/friends/family to bid is a legitimate concern. I don't know what you mean by transparent bidding, but if that means bidders' identities are public I'd be against it. I don't have a plan of my own to offer.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Bottom-line is that with AHs you put yourself in a much more vulnerable position, and we've all seen how premium cards go for crazy amounts at an AH only to take a nosedive on ebay.

Is this always the case? Of course not, but you'll almost never see a premium card go for less in an AH than on ebay.

I understand the point you are making, but I think at least some of that phenomenon is because eBay is lot more dicey than dealing with an auction house. I am certainly not a big fish, but if I was buying a real premium card, I would feel much more secure buying from an auction house than off of eBay. The chance of receiving an empty box or a reprint that was depicted as a real card in the listing is pretty much zero with an auction house.

The auction houses are not perfect by any means, but they also weed out the blatant scammers and rip off artists that are so common on eBay. How much of what you cited is people paying for peace of mind and not having to deal with the riff raff of sellers on eBay?

[OTWCards]

Auction House Transparency: All bidder names and/or ID's will be available and noted on each active auction item up to and including closing of the auction.

PRO: Identifies the bidder on the lot, provides a record of the bidder's purchase(s), allows bidders to see who they are bidding against or lost to, provides peace of mind to proponents that suggest such transparency will stem the tide of shill or false bids

CON: Provides purchase history and price point of attached to bidder, allows others to run up selected bidders, allows auction houses to create bidders/identities to use as shills which defeats the purpose of intended transparency

Scenario 1: High profile bidder, known to many in the hobby, is identified by his bidder name/ID and others, knowing high profile bidder will not be outbid, run up the item (in essence, shill bidding)

Scenario 2: Bidder wins lot or group of cards to break up and sells them. Bidding patterns and bidding strategy can then be identified and copied.

Scenario 3: Major dealer or another auction house bids and wins and resells item. The AH Investigative Team springs into action and calls out a conspiracy.

Scenario 4: A bidder wins a lot(s) and another bidder takes exception and makes a point to harass through eBay/message boards or outbid against the winner in the next auction.

Scenario 5: A bidder wins and no one cares.

Scenario 6: A bidder (fictitious auction house shill account) wins the auction after multiple shill bids and the auction house eventually offers the item to the under bidder or runs it again in the next auction while the "realized" price stands as a point of record.

I'm sure there are many other scenarios, but I really don't see how such transparency would cut down on shilling or false prices as all the auction house has to do is create false accounts (they could even utilize consignor names or addresses to camouflage this in the event of inquiry).

The attempt to create true transparency by use of actual bidder names would only cause some bidder NOT to engage in such auctions. There are times that I have no interest in others knowing what I am bidding on or purchasing. And I'm quite certain that there are some high profile bidders that enjoy and insist upon their anonymity...

[Sean1125]

In a perfect world an auction house would be completely transparent. In this world the closest we will get is an auction house that keep anonymity for the bidder but adds transparency in other areas for bidding (while still keeping the buyers anonymous if they want), descriptions, fees, etc.

[murcerfan]

The only solution is for all of you to stop bidding in online auctions.

That'll show 'em!

[markf31]

There is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. Even if AHs make all bidding transparent, that does not preclude people from creating and managing multiple accounts to shill their own consignments. Maybe it makes it slightly more challenging to do, but it certainly would not be difficult to do. And it would be even easier for those AHs that are nefarious themselves, to create a never ending supply of fake users to shill auctions for their own benefit.

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I understand the point you are making, but I think at least some of that phenomenon is because eBay is lot more dicey than dealing with an auction house. I am certainly not a big fish, but if I was buying a real premium card, I would feel much more secure buying from an auction house than off of eBay. The chance of receiving an empty box or a reprint that was depicted as a real card in the listing is pretty much zero with an auction house.

The auction houses are not perfect by any means, but they also weed out the blatant scammers and rip off artists that are so common on eBay. How much of what you cited is people paying for peace of mind and not having to deal with the riff raff of sellers on eBay?

I agree there are definitely scam and rip off artists on ebay, but at least you have buyer (and seller) protection if something goes wrong. With AHs you have no buyer protection at all. I've read stories of people receiving items NAD from AHs and then having to go through hell just to get a response.

Personally, I don't find any peace of mind bidding blindly and having no financial recourse if something goes wrong.


As for those who suggest just bid what you feel comfortable with, well, where do you get that comfort level from? Is it from research into what things have sold for recently in the past? If that research came from AH hammer prices then your own feeling of comfort might be coming from a shilled auction where you have no way of knowing what happened. Just because you feel something is right doesn't make it so.


Like I have said before, transparency is the only way to make it more difficult for people to cheat and scam. As long as humans exist there will always be those trying to take advantage through immoral means, but that doesn't mean you give up and say there is nothing you can do. It means you evolve, and if you don't, you get left in the dust. Adaptability is why humans have prevailed as the dominant species on this planet, and change is a good thing.

IMO, if you're afraid of people knowing what you're bidding on or buying, then you shouldn't be buying it. And I think the whole extended bidding system is nonsense. The system on ebay where it ends at an exact time and you drop in your bid at the last second to protect against any shill bidders works very well.

It's always better to have more information, that's how you get to the truth of situations by making informed decisions, it's how credibility is built and it's really the only way to get the closest to everyone winning.

[MikeU]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

I agree there are definitely scam and rip off artists on ebay, but at least you have buyer (and seller) protection if something goes wrong. With AHs you have no buyer protection at all. I've read stories of people receiving items NAD from AHs and then having to go through hell just to get a response.

Personally, I don't find any peace of mind bidding blindly and having no financial recourse if something goes wrong.


As for those who suggest just bid what you feel comfortable with, well, where do you get that comfort level from? Is it from research into what things have sold for recently in the past? If that research came from AH hammer prices then your own feeling of comfort might be coming from a shilled auction where you have no way of knowing what happened. Just because you feel something is right doesn't make it so.


Like I have said before, transparency is the only way to make it more difficult for people to cheat and scam. As long as humans exist there will always be those trying to take advantage through immoral means, but that doesn't mean you give up and say there is nothing you can do. It means you evolve, and if you don't, you get left in the dust. Adaptability is why humans have prevailed as the dominant species on this planet, and change is a good thing.

IMO, if you're afraid of people knowing what you're bidding on or buying, then you shouldn't be buying it. And I think the whole extended bidding system is nonsense. The system on ebay where it ends at an exact time and you drop in your bid at the last second to protect against any shill bidders works very well.

It's always better to have more information, that's how you get to the truth of situations by making informed decisions, it's how credibility is built and it's really the only way to get the closest to everyone winning.

You want auction houses to be completely transparent when you don't even allow your 79T baseball set to be transparent on the PSA registry?

[glynparson]

Why do you think you have a right to know what someone else is purchasing for their collection? I do not think you have this right nor should you.

[drc]

My question is what is meant by 'transparency.' I'm against bidder's names being published, but perhaps what is meant is ebay-like nicknames or numbers.

I wouldn't bid at a place where my name is published. And I can understand why someone who won $300,000 worth of stuff and has a publicly available home address wouldn't want his name published. Publishing on the internet the name and address where $300,000 worth of stuff will soon be delivered-- now there's a smart idea.

And, besides, my dog has access to my computer. You could never prove the shilling was by me. Terriers are well known to be shifty.

[sdkammeyer]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

IMO, auction houses and their blind bidding structure create and the perdect environment for shillers and cheats who would bid up their own cards, or someone else's, for whatever reason.

I think ebay provides a safer system for bidding, albeit not ideal.

Total transparency is the only thing that I believe has any chance of legitimizing the realized prices that many pay for high profile items.

I've seen many times an item sell for X amount at an AH and then the same item nosedives on ebay. Why? Well because on ebay you've got a chance to research what happens during bidding. Most recently a member on CU was outed for shilling and item he consigned to an ebay seller, this would be impossible with the current structure of AHs.

Then you have the "no financial recourse" aspect of AHs ... which is a separate, but very significant, issue as well.

I hope we see some government regulation for these AHs as I fear they falsly inflate the prices of many high profile items, thereby hurting the legitimacy of our hobby.

As I've said before, and many have agrees, a little transparency goes a long way.

I think there will be conspiracy theorists (such as yourself .... no mal intent) in any aspect of life. The JFK assassination was rigged .... so was 9/11.

I wonder what your thoughts on Barrett-Jackson's multi-billion dollar yearly national televised auto auctions are? Are there people sitting in the crowd that are friends of the car's owner pumping the bids as it rolls across the auction block??

[aquarius31]

Paul, if you have legitimate concerns on AH's bidding policies then simply continue to use eBay. I have purchased items from both AH and eBay and have always been comfortable with what I paid for an item. You put up your max bid and hope that you're the high bidder...if not then someone else wanted it more than you.

Yes, there are instances where people may bid up their own auctions or have others do it for them but I truly believe that those instances are rare. More transparency doesn't necessarily help here and I don't think this is isolated to baseball cards and memorabilia.

Bottom line imho is to bid where you feel comfortable.

[smtjoy]

Lots of good points in this thread, I do think because of ebays actions (no longer able to see bidder id's) and the rise of ebay consignment companies, far more shilling is going on in ebay than the AH's today. That said "buyer beware" because it's happening in both.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Lots of good points in this thread, I do think because of ebays actions (no longer able to see bidder id's) and the rise of ebay consignment companies, far more shilling is going on in ebay than the AH's today. That said "buyer beware" because it's happening in both.

+1. And I sense with the good guys in the FBI handing out subpoena's and watching the AH industry there is a bit less shenanigans than there used to be. And I do think there is more than ever going on on ebay. Sounds like Paul (hi Paul) isn't quite getting the consensus he wanted?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

+1. And I sense with the good guys in the FBI handing out subpoena's and watching the AH industry there is a bit less shenanigans than there used to be. And I do think there is more than ever going on on ebay. Sounds like Paul (hi Paul) isn't quite getting the consensus he wanted?

Also, don't forget 'mature seller shill i.d.'s'. Ten years ago we complained about possible shilling and at that time we could easily spot 'low feedback' i.d.'s, and even track them back to sellers. Now we can't track them, PLUS those same i.d.'s would be ten years older now and much more difficult to spot because of their higher feedback numbers.

I will take the auction houses over ebay sellers any day.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

IMO, auction houses and their blind bidding structure create and the perdect environment for shillers and cheats who would bid up their own cards, or someone else's, for whatever reason.

It does create an environment to do this. But what if the consignor wins back his card? The bid is $1,000, with BP it's $1,180. Less consignment fees he gets $850. Basically he paid $330 to get his card back. Very risky.

[yankeeno7]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

It does create an environment to do this. But what if the consignor wins back his card? The bid is $1,000, with BP it's $1,180. Less consignment fees he gets $850. Basically he paid $330 to get his card back. Very risky.

And there are those who have admitted to this not thinking they had done something wrong (and one person is a member here ) They are lucky that the thread on CU was poofed, unless someone was quick enough to screen capture.

So no matter what everyone has for a moral compass, there will always be more people (or so it seems) who will take the low road for a few bucks. Money and greed often go hand in hand with the collectibles industries whether it be cards, coins, comics, cars, etc

Transparency will never "cure" problems with auction houses or ebay. It wont even lessen it. It will only make the scammers more ingenious how they do it.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by yankeeno7

And there are those who have admitted to this not thinking they had done something wrong (and one person is a member here ) They are lucky that the thread on CU was poofed, unless someone was quick enough to screen capture.

So no matter what everyone has for a moral compass, there will always be more people (or so it seems) who will take the low road for a few bucks. Money and greed often go hand in hand with the collectibles industries whether it be cards, coins, comics, cars, etc

Transparency will never "cure" problems with auction houses or ebay. It wont even lessen it. It will only make the scammers more ingenious how they do it.

This?


bobbyw8469
Master Collector

Posts: 5333
Joined: Nov 2007
Wednesday January 23, 2013 12:30 PM (NEW!)



I am going to play Devil's advocate here. I recently consigned my entire 1933 Sports Kings graded set with PWCC. After I consigned it, I immediately had regrets. I paid $1,000 for the Babe Didrickson card less than 2 months before the auctions. I see the card at $600 with 30 seconds to go before the auction ends. I would absolutely love to have it back - I paid $1,000 just last month, SURELY I would pay $750 and think I was getting a steal. Is that wrong to bid on that card?

Or how about this scenario. I consign a card, and don't realize that All Star Cards is paying $850 for a particular card in a particular grade. I see the card in question for $300 less than what ASC is paying. Is that wrong to try to win the card to ship it off to ASC for a profit, even though it is my card?

Just wanted some thoughts and ideas.......



bobbyw8469
Master Collector

Posts: 5333
Joined: Nov 2007
Wednesday January 23, 2013 5:47 PM (NEW!)





<< You did bid it UP. You can't bid on your own item, and it makes no difference whether you originally bought it for $1 or $1000. >>




If I paid $1,000 for a card one month ago, do you think I am going to absolutely hate it at $500??? I bid on alot of cards. I use ONE CLICK BID. Alot of times I don't even look at the seller. I accidentally bid on the card. I see a card that I think is an absolute steal, and I bid on it. I am a VCP member and I see what the current average is on the card. The winning bidder got it for darn near $150 under the average selling price. It was an accident. I would have LOVED to have that card for $600. At $710 the winning bidder absolute stole the card.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

It didn't get poofed, just locked. It's on page 11 right now.

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

This?


bobbyw8469
Master Collector

Posts: 5333
Joined: Nov 2007
Wednesday January 23, 2013 12:30 PM (NEW!)



I am going to play Devil's advocate here. I recently consigned my entire 1933 Sports Kings graded set with PWCC. After I consigned it, I immediately had regrets. I paid $1,000 for the Babe Didrickson card less than 2 months before the auctions. I see the card at $600 with 30 seconds to go before the auction ends. I would absolutely love to have it back - I paid $1,000 just last month, SURELY I would pay $750 and think I was getting a steal. Is that wrong to bid on that card?

Or how about this scenario. I consign a card, and don't realize that All Star Cards is paying $850 for a particular card in a particular grade. I see the card in question for $300 less than what ASC is paying. Is that wrong to try to win the card to ship it off to ASC for a profit, even though it is my card?

Just wanted some thoughts and ideas.......



bobbyw8469
Master Collector

Posts: 5333
Joined: Nov 2007
Wednesday January 23, 2013 5:47 PM (NEW!)





<< You did bid it UP. You can't bid on your own item, and it makes no difference whether you originally bought it for $1 or $1000. >>




If I paid $1,000 for a card one month ago, do you think I am going to absolutely hate it at $500??? I bid on alot of cards. I use ONE CLICK BID. Alot of times I don't even look at the seller. I accidentally bid on the card. I see a card that I think is an absolute steal, and I bid on it. I am a VCP member and I see what the current average is on the card. The winning bidder got it for darn near $150 under the average selling price. It was an accident. I would have LOVED to have that card for $600. At $710 the winning bidder absolute stole the card.

And he got caught because of semi-transparent bidding. It's a deterrent.

Others have been caught and blocked as a result. Yes there are always workarounds but the point is to keep evolving ways to keep things fair.

I don't expect people who run AHs (known or unknown) or those who have their minds made up to change. My POV is to offer some food for thought to those who haven't considered this yet, and who just don't know any better.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

And he got caught because of semi-transparent bidding. It's a deterrent.

Others have been caught and blocked as a result. Yes there are always workarounds but the point is to keep evolving ways to keep things fair.

I don't expect people who run AHs (known or unknown) or those who have their minds made up to change. My POV is to offer some food for thought to those who haven't considered this yet, and who just don't know any better.

Federal Indictments and subpoenas are a deterrent too. Paul, you really epitomize something I repeat quite often. If everyone else is wrong, you might want to look in the mirror.

No one has ever said AH bidding is perfect. No one. Yet you go on and on about thinking people say that. They don't. You are just obstinate and quite wrong and will never ever get it. I bet if you made an F in school you would tell the teacher the test was wrong. (even though everyone else made good grades on it). There is no doubt there are problems with AH bidding but to argue it's worse than ebay is just ignorant, at best, and stupid at worst. Pick one.