reprint wagner piedmonts

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Posted By: peter ullman

but if they were true collectors...or old employees who collected cards...maybe they wanted to print them with impossible backs so they couldn't be confused as c.1909...just a thought.

Weren't there some goudey employees who fabricated fantasy cards or maybe it was some serious early collectors that reproduced cards that literally were authentic but changed certain elements slightly so they couldn't be mistaken as authentic/vintage?

pete in mn

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My opinion is you couldn't make a perfect T206 reprint. Duplicating the
original printing process and ink would be prohibitive enough in and of
itself, as the process is no longer used. And you couldn't replicate
perfectly the card both at the naked eye and microscopic level. Somewhat
like Heisenbrg's Uncertainty Principle in Nuclear Physics, the more
accurately one duplicates the printing at the naked eye level, the less
accurate the printing becomes at the microscopic level-- and visa versa.
One way to look at it the T206 printing process is primitive by today's
standards-- even your home computer printer can make a more realistic
looking reprint of your family picnic photo. You'd make a far better
naked eye reprint of a T206 Wagner with your computer printer than with
the original lithography process. In other words, if you used the original 1909
process to make a reprint of a T206, it would look bad at the naked eye
level. And if you used your computer printer to make a realistic reprint
at the naked eye level, it wouldn't resemble 1909 printing under the microscope.

And, even if you could duplicate the printing and card stock in the 1950s,
the production & research costs would be so high you'd make more than
two Wagners.

I haven't read all the posts so may repeat what has already been said,
but the low grade Piedmont Wagner appears to be a scrap card.

I also agree with Ted's point that if you could make a perfect copy of the
Wagner, you'd make one with a Sweet Caporal back. Especially in the 1950s, a
unique back would merely draw attention to the fact that the card is different
than all other known Wagners. Whether it's a 1963 Topps Pete Rose or a $5 bill,
the point of making a perfect copy is to have it slip in with all the others.

Even today, someone trying to make the best fake Wagner ever wouldn't chose a
Tolstoi or American Beauty back, as the initial collector reaction would be
"No way."

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

However, according to everything I have heard about these 1950's Piedmont Wagners, they were printed NOT to fool anybody (I think I have stated this multiple times, but will once more). They were printed to simply fill "holes" in collections. I also agree that there could have been some printer's scrap Wagners at the Piedmont factory as well that made it out and were never issued. However, I could agree with this more if there were some Piedmont Wagners that were actually issued in Piedmont Cig. packs. Again, if that was the case, there should be about twice as many Piedmont Wagners as there are SC's. Then, maybe the guys printing Piedmont cards caught wind of Wagner's willingness NOT to be included before the SC factory guys and never issued the card in a pack - thus, leaving a few examples of printer's scrap - that would also be plausible. If Scott B. has looked at the one Wagner he mentions and believes the card is printer's scrap, I have no reason to not believe him, as this is plausible. However, there still were Piedmont 150 Wagners printed in the 1950's - again NOT to deceive anyone.

Whether it is printer's scrap from 1909 or not, I wouldn't touch a Piedmont Wagner with a ten foot pole! I will go back to provenance for this one. While none of the Piedmont Wagners can be traced back past the 1950's, several of the Sweet Caporal Wagners certainly can be.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I may have missed it, it's a very long thread now, but what is your theory as to the PROCESS/TECHNOLOGY used to make Piedmont Wagners in the 1950's? And if as you hypothesize these were collectors doing it just for kicks and not to fool anyone, wouldn't they have made a lot of other fun stuff too, not just Piedmont Wagners? Why not, for example, Polar Bear Wagners? Mattys with Ty Cobb backs? etc.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

again, I don't really know the technology used to make these reprints in the 1950's. There were other cards printed as well - just take the Piedmont Plank Mastro picked up along with around 60 other cards (when he purchased the Wagner in NY).

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Posted By: leon

Hey Scott, you said

"However, there still were Piedmont 150 Wagners printed in the 1950's - again NOT to deceive anyone."


If that were the case, and it could have been who knows, then the PSA8 Wagner must not be what you are speaking of as it's fooled a few folks for at least being real (myself included but that doesn't mean much )....no?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Leon, hypothetically, if a reprint was so good that it DID fool people does not really speak to the original intent at a time when cards had almost no value.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

the people who ORIGINALLY printed the Piedmont Wagners in the 1950's did NOT want to deceive anyone. What happened in the 1980's was out of their control! They could have even been deceased by then.

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Posted By: Paul

I didn't have the patience to read this entire thread, so if this question has already been asked, please forgive me.

As I understand it, the theory is that Woody Gelman and other true hobby pioneers decided to start printing their own Goudey and T206 cards in the 1950s, mostly to obtain cards they didn't own. To do this, they acquired the original Goudey printing plates (which were then 20 years old) and the original T206 printing plates (which were then about 45 years old), including the printing plate(s) for the T206 Wagner.

My question is this: where are the printing plates now? Surely Woody Gelman, Charles Bray, Buck Barker, Jefferson Burdick and the rest of the hobby pioneers would have appreciated the extraordinary collectability of the original printing plate of the T206 Wagner. It's my understanding that Burdick did not even acquire a Wagner until a few years before donating his collection, and some of the other pioneers never found one. Surely any one of them would have thought that it would be a real hoot to include the printing plate of this impossible card in their collections. But I'm not aware of a single T206 or Goudey printing plate ever being uncovered, either in the collections of the pioneers or anywhere else. Where did they go?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Paul brings up an interesting point. When I was in HS Print shop back in the mid-1950's,
our teacher took us for a tour to a local printing plant. They had 40-year old printing plates
there. These plates were from the same era that the T206 printing occured. Printing plates
just don't get trashed....they are kept for many years.

In 1985, I was fortunate enough, thru an old Bowman employee, to have seen the actual 30
year old, 32-image printing plates (seven of them) that comprised a complete 1954 Bowman
set. And yes, the famous Ted Williams #66 image was on the 3rd 32-image printing plate.
Sooner or later printing plates of all kinds will surface.

So, Scott......show us these mysterious Wagner/Piedmont printing plates ?

Perhaps, we will also find the Sweet Caporal 350 (Fac #30) plates of the Eddie Plank card.
As this 2nd Series card of Plank has always mystified T206 collectors. Maybe it, too, was
actually printed in the 1950's ? ?

I'm not trying to be being a "wise-ass" here, but my experience tells me that printing plates
have a long shelf life.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

T206s are lithographs, and lithograph plates rarely lasted over the years, typically having the surfaces being wiped clean for other use. I doubt a lithography plate would be usable 40 years after. I've never seen printing plates for early lithography issues, like Allen & Ginters, T206s and Goudeys. I've never even seen a 1950s-80s Topps lithography printing plate-- and you see Topps proofs, original art, uncut card sheets, player contracts and other productions items all the time. If no one here has seen a printing plate for 1989 Upper Deck, 1992 Bowman or 1980 Topps, the T206 Wagner plate floating around sounds like a fairy tale. You do see single player litho plate pieces for late 1990s/2000s cards, but that's because Donruss/Topps et al used/use them as inerts in packs. Not a bad idea-- instead of destroying the plates, cut them up, slab on a sticker call them 1-of-1 inserts.

Old commercial printing plates exist, but they are almost always for non-lithographic cards like Exhibit Supply, Sporting News and newspaper pictures. These are the 'embossed' printing plates where you can feel the image with your finger. If you found an undamaged Exhibit Supply or Sporting News printing plate, you could make more cards from it.

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Posted By: Bruce Perry

how about getting Mastro's take on all this (maybe I missed it...I do not have time to read every comment)....what does he think...also, I still think PSA had enough expertise when the wagner 8 was initially graded to get it right....being such an important card for them when they started....such publicity....to wrongly authenticate it (never mind the grade) when they knew otherwise makes no sense as it would have seriously ruined what they wanted to establish...integrity and trust in their newly formed grading company...I may be naive but I believe this to be true....Mike Baker told me once that the Wagner is 100% legit...and he is the most respected grader PSA has ever had (now with GAI as director of grading)

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Posted By: David Smith

I have no say in this matter because I have only held one T206 Wagner in my hands in my lifetime and that was for only a short period of time, so I am not an expert.

But Bruce, I have two points to make about your questions.

1) If there were something wrong with the Piedmont Wagner card and Mastro knew about it, why would he come on here (or anywhere else for that matter) and say anything?? He bought the card and then turned around and sold it. Since he profited from it, it seems he would/should keep quiet if there is something "not right" about the card. Why? Because if he says anything now, his credibility will be questioned. Once that happens, don't you think more questions will start to come up about other cards and/or items in his auctions?? We have seen what happens to auction companies (Verkman) when their credibility comes into question.

2) If PSA graded a card that was "not right" and it is the King of all cards, why would they say anything about it?? Getting that card and grading it was HUGE as far as advertising and credibility is concerned. Again, if the company's credibility comes into question do you think people will still shell out money for grading?? Especially those who are putting high grade sets together for the Registry??

Also, why would the owner of the card EVER crack it out of it's slab for any type of testing?? He has everything to lose and very little, if anything, to gain. If the card is found to be real, so what?? If the card has "problems" or is found to be a reproduction from the 1950's, then that $2 million plus he/she spent is mostly down the drain.

Just my thoughts,

David

PS, if the card is a printers scrap, is it still worth $2 million plus??

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I think Scott B. (hi Scott) has hit the nail on the nose: "It is 100% legit and is in fact printers scrap." One thing we know printers did was take useless sheets and run them through the press to clear the press before starting a different run. We also know that these cards sometimes escaped the factory, either inadvertently in packs or purposefully taken by workers in sheets or cut up cards. Once the order came down to get rid of Wagner do you think the printer was going to throw away the sheets on hand? No. He would use them just like any other discarded sheet. A few made it out, it seems, is the most likely explanation of the Piedmont Wagner.

For the conspiracy theorists out there, think in practical terms about what you are suggesting w/r/t reprinting: find the printer who did the T206 cards, get the printer to give you the plates for the cards (how do you explain that one--bribery, threats, lies?), get stocks and inks that match the period, find a press that matched the period, do a print run, get it cut to specs, and for what? At a time when people were giving away cards? It does not make sense. Think about it: no internet to research, no modern travel to move about easily on this hunt, and no funds to pursue a quest like that (the men in question were not wealthy--far from it). And think about the men accused of this: the collectors who are accused of fomenting the greatest fraud in the history of the hobby are also the people who organized it and established it. Why would they do that?

I strongly believe that the simplest explanation is generally the right one. The simplest explanation here is that when the word came down to pull Wagner, the Piedmont cards had been run and those sheets were kept around and used for various scrap tasks. A few cards survived, including the two Wagners. One was on a sheet or partial sheet and cut up and so forth, the other was cut early on and survived in a vintage collection.

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Posted By: JimB

boxingcardman,
Your version of things seems the most reasonable to me.
Thanks,
JimB

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Like I have stated SEVERAL times - I don't know how these Piedmont Wagners were printed. I do know they exist, as I have seen two - years ago. I don't even know where they are today. I have also heard (from others and the owners of the two I saw), that these were Piedmont Wagners printed in the 1950's. After you look real close at one you will notice differences between these (and the ones now being sold as legit) and the Sweet Caporal Wagners. Some say this is because these cards were printer's scrap - others (myself included) say it is b/c they are not period. Again, I don't know anything about how these were printed (the 50's Piedmont Wagners). I don't know anything about the printing plates. I do know they exist. I do know that these Piedmont Wagners being sold as period look different than SC 150 Wagners - Leon even saw one in person and noted the back looked "lighter". Some think they are scrap and some think they are not period - to each his own.

BTW - I think a lot of you coming in at the end of this argument are getting things mixed up. It sounds to me like a few of you are referring to Scott's remarks as if he was talking about the PSA 8 Piedmont Wagner - he was NOT - he was rerring to a low grade ungraded example Mastro sold that Mastro stated had some "Wet Sheet Transfer" on the card - but looked like a dirty card to me from the poor scan.

One thing I have learned arguing the PSA 8 Wagner or any Piedmont Wagner being sold as real over the years - I haven't seen many people at all stray from their original impressions. Until one side can provide 100% proof to support their theory, we are all just wasting our breath, b/c the other side will not give. I thought posting back scans of a real Piedmont and the back of the PSA 8 Piedmont Wagner would show some terrific proof for my statement (especially where the small detailed lines on the PSA 8 Wagner are "bunched together" like it was copied from something). The scans might have made some people think - might have even put a question mark in some people's minds. However, it didn't sway people to change their opinion of the Wagner. I would say that if the Wagner was proven 100% to have come from the 1950's, some would still believe it is real. Again, we will simply have to agree to disagree at present on this issue it seems.