Another fake 52T Mantle on ebay

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wish I understood how they hijack these accounts.

If that's what they're doing I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to hack into an ebay account. I'm no hacker but for an expert I don't think it's too tough. They could also just be building a rating with a few small transactions and then going for the big score. Scary either way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If that's what they're doing I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to hack into an ebay account. I'm no hacker but for an expert I don't think it's too tough. They could also just be building a rating with a few small transactions and then going for the big score. Scary either way.

I am pretty sure they are hijacking. The accounts have been around awhile. They seem to have an endless supply.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am pretty sure they are hijacking. The accounts have been around awhile. They seem to have an endless supply.

Probably some kind of password hacking software. I have also heard of devices that can intercept information from people using cell phones. It seems like one of these listings pops up every few days. They might be doing the same thing with other high end cards that we aren't watching. Jordan rookies perhaps, or other high profile vintage cards.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Strange how they use the same wording in the listing. I guess they don't want these auctions to run their course. I wonder if people are actually stupid enough to just wire money or send paypal FF in hopes of a bargain.

I venture to guess there is a sucker born every day.

[ezez420]

It is the same couple of a$$holes doing it. Notice that he puts a piece of paper with seller id to make as if legit. One of these guys is the same guy that is hiding in Mexico. It isnt just cards he is doing it with. He has been doing this for years. All high dollar items.

Another guy is one that sells baby items also who is wanted across the US. The other guy is one that sells patches and builds up bs feedback then sells a high dollar card. Or should I say tries.

[Joe_G.]

Maybe already covered elsewhere, but I just noticed Goodwin & Co. pulled PSA8 Mantle from current auction due to authenticity concerns. This caught me by surprise and remembered this thread.

Here is link to pulled auction lot: http://goodwinandco.com/Remarkable_1...-LOT31556.aspx

[ullmandds]

wow! That's big.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Did anyone save a scan?

[steve_a]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Did anyone save a scan?

If not I imagine catalogues are already in the mail for our armchair forensic analysis.

[steve_a]

Here you go-

[botn]

Cert is not valid. Not an expert detecting fake flips but should the last one in 311 line up directly over the vertical part of the T in NM-MT?

[Iron Horse]

Wow!, you are right cert # is not a valid one in PSA registry

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least judging by a couple of other examples of newer flips, the "S" at the end of Topps should be further to the left of "N" in Mantle, also. Well, if there are fakes in the new holders, that is going to shake things up.

For comparison on the lettering.

[MattyC]

I have had several cards graded by PSA over the years, whose cert numbers came back as unknown when entered into their site's verification feature. When this happened, they had me send the cards back and they then logged the certs into their database. This may very well be the case here, time will tell. But it's worth noting that an unknown cert is by no means proof positive a card/slab is fake. Often times it's fine but they didn't put the cert into the system after grading or bumping.

[botn]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I have had several cards graded by PSA over the years, whose cert numbers came back as unknown when entered into their site's verification feature. When this happened, they had me send the cards back and they then logged the certs into their database. This may very well be the case here, time will tell. But it's worth noting that an unknown cert is by no means proof positive a card/slab is fake. Often times it's fine but they didn't put the cert into the system after grading or bumping.

That's all well and good but that is not at all the situation in this case. The invalid cert number is not from a failure to enter it at the time of grading.

[steve_a]

It's possible that they pulled the cert if the card was determined to be fake. Anyone check the cert last week?

[MW1]

Originally Posted by steve_a

Here you go-

Looks like the holder has been compromised. This is especially evident along the right and left edges. Also, the hologram on the flip doesn't look like that when scanned and, as has been pointed out already, the font alignment is wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mike I've seen some scans where the hologram looks solid gray like that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-Diamond...AAAOSw9mFWHWZF

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-Go...kAAOSw5ZBWHWJy

Unless I am missing some subtle difference? Or maybe not so subtle and I am just missing it.

[pokerplyr80]

So that card looks good to me. What is the thought on this one? That it's a really good fake? Or that someone used a real under-graded or altered Mantle and put it into a fake 8 holder?

Peter, since you're in this thread if this is a fake does a fraud of this magnitude warrant serious jail time if someone were found to be guilty? Can you be prosecuted for submitting a fake card into a public auction?

[glchen]

I really don't know how you can compromise one of the new PSA holders like that. I've basically destroyed the holder when I've tried to crack a card out. Obviously when the $$$$ get that big, someone has a huge incentive to find a way.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mike I've seen some scans where the hologram looks solid gray like that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-Diamond...AAAOSw9mFWHWZF

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-Go...kAAOSw5ZBWHWJy

Unless I am missing some subtle difference? Or maybe not so subtle and I am just missing it.

Those look different. In nearly every case, there's some reflective evidence of an actual hologram/background image. I'm not seeing that on the Goodwin flip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MW1

Those look different. In nearly every case, there's some reflective evidence of an actual hologram/background image. I'm not seeing that on the Goodwin flip.

Yeah, I see what you mean, although it would not have jumped out at me before you mentioned it.

If there was no hologram, you would think Bill would have noticed that immediately though?

[bxb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At least judging by a couple of other examples of newer flips, the "S" at the end of Topps should be further to the left of "N" in Mantle, also. Well, if there are fakes in the new holders, that is going to shake things up.

For comparison on the lettering.

Agreed.

Looks like a fake flip.

The cert #s on the PSA registry before and after 5006-8216 were mostly low grade 49 Bowmans.

Caveat emptor.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's getting tougher to be an emptor if this is the new norm.

[sbfinley]

From the f/b scan is there anything standing out to question the card's authenticity? I'm not an expert on the card but it looks like a token second print. In truth the one thing that jumps out is what seems to be an enhanced scan.

As for hologram, I recently noticed when I scanned the new flips at 1200dpi the holos were extremely flat, could just be that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glchen

I really don't know how you can compromise one of the new PSA holders like that. I've basically destroyed the holder when I've tried to crack a card out. Obviously when the $$$$ get that big, someone has a huge incentive to find a way.

You must not be doing it right.

[MW1]

This card is emblematic of a much larger problem in the hobby: Dealers and auction companies that sell high-ticket vintage cards without proper practical knowledge about the nuances of grading, while lacking the necessary tools to eliminate altered and counterfeit cards from their inventories. For every 707 Sportscards that's out there, you've got dozens of relatively recent start-up eBay vendors, some with very high and seemingly impressive feedback numbers, who simply cannot differentiate between real and fake vintage sports cards--especially when the issue in question is unusual or scarce.

The first layer of customer security should always reside with the vendor, not with a knowledgeable customer who has to send an email to an auction company or online eBay seller informing them that their 1952 Topps Mantle is bogus. Just something to think about.

One mistaken notion, I believe, is that the real "value" of a card is solely dictated by its aftermarket sales price. That's really short-sighted. The accumulated knowledge and expertise of the seller, which should be used to guide the buyer during a purchase, is also imperative. The amount of money wasted by collectors just this last year on bogus high-ticket vintage cards is staggering. It's time to put more stock in knowledge and place less value on the sticker price of a card sold by an inexperienced, high-feedback, gimmick-driven eBay seller or auction company whose greatest asset is its recognizable name.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This flip doesn't look much different than the Goodwin 8.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MW1

This card is emblematic of a much larger problem in the hobby: Dealers and auction companies that sell high-ticket vintage cards without proper practical knowledge about the nuances of grading, while lacking the necessary tools to eliminate altered and counterfeit cards from their inventories. For every 707 Sportscards that's out there, you've got dozens of relatively recent start-up eBay vendors, some with very high and seemingly impressive feedback numbers, who simply cannot differentiate between real and fake vintage sports cards--especially when the issue in question is unusual or scarce.

The first layer of customer security should always reside with the vendor, not with a knowledgeable customer who has to send an email to an auction company or online eBay seller informing them that their 1952 Topps Mantle is bogus. Just something to think about.

One mistaken notion, I believe, is that the real "value" of a card is solely dictated by its aftermarket sales price. That's really short-sighted. The accumulated knowledge and expertise of the seller, which should be used to guide the buyer during a purchase, is also imperative. The amount of money wasted by collectors just this last year on bogus high-ticket vintage cards is staggering. It's time to put more stock in knowledge and place less value on the sticker price of a card sold by an inexperienced, high-feedback, gimmick-driven eBay seller or auction company whose greatest asset is its recognizable name.

Could part of that be that in the era of third party grading, many sellers no longer feel compelled to make independent assessments, or have not felt the need to develop the requisite knowledge?

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This flip doesn't look much different than the Goodwin 8.

There's still two subtle but evident differences:



1. The size and position of "PSA" relative to the edges of the bounding box formed by the hologram.
2. The sharpness of the corners of the hologram -- on the allegedly fake hologram, the corners of the box appear slightly rounded.

I'd like to see an enlarged image of the 1952 Mantle that was removed from the auction. Because of the scanning method that was used, it is difficult to tell what the background of the hologram really looks like in the smaller image.

[Iron Horse]

Walter Payton does show up on PSA certificate match. The hologram however does match the fake Mantle

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Could part of that be that in the era of third party grading, many sellers no longer feel compelled to make independent assessments, or have not felt the need to develop the requisite knowledge?

I don't agree with the independent assessment part. Just look at all of the "certified high end" cards selling for premium prices in the marketplace. But the latter, yes, quite true. Lots of horses following the carts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MW1

I don't agree with the independent assessment part. Just look at all of the "certified high end" cards selling for premium prices in the marketplace. But the latter, yes, quite true. Lots of horses following the carts.

Yeah I forgot about those. When I see them I just disregard the hype, but I guess for some people it matters.