1909-1911 players who didn't get their own T206 card?

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Posted By: barry arnold

Just got back from 2 Christmas parties and am elated to see what has transpired here!!!
As always, many, many thanks for the supportive words TRex and expertise.
Please keep the data and interpretations coming!!!
And from the recent posts of T206 scholars, I'm very pleased to offer this
update:(41)
adams
alexander
altrock
archer
austin
campbell
carey
cole
collins,shano
coombs
daubert
delehanty
falkenberg
faust
gardner
gleason
gowdy
grant
hooper
jackson
leever
lewis
mack
mcconnell
mcguire
mckechnie
mcinnis
moore
o'connor
peckinpaugh
richie
sallee
schitzer
shean
shotton
toney
thoney
tyler
vaughn
walker
wood
Did i leave any out?
Keep 'em coming T206 scholars.
Keep the questions related to the Ted's Caramel theory coming,too.

many thanks,
barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Well, if ATC did print all these, a complete T206 set would comprise of 565 Subjects.
That's equivalent to adding horns to "The Monster".

It's tough enough as it is with 524, so let's be content with that number.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I believe in a past thread that there was at least a year lag if not more to be put into the set, thus anyone playing in 1910 or later probably were not included.

I always thought Jack Coombs was a very odd omission. But it amazes me of the players with little to no experience to have cards.

What ever happened to the Howie Camnitz 3 cards that one is actually his brother? If you look at the follow thru pose it sure doesn't look like the other 2 poses.

Lee

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Posted By: barry arnold

TRex,
I agree. Let's be content--- and be amazed that such big names were left out
(like Coombs,as Lee B. underscores).
The data did help buttress your Caramel theory again and again methinks.

thanks for all the efforts, T206 scholars.
best,
barry

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Posted By: Jason L

I thought I might revisit this work from a month ago, in light of one of my new player interests.
I don't think he was listed in this thread, and he is not in Barry's list of 41 players on Nov 29.

Jack Graney of Cleveland does not have a T206 card
He played in 116 games in 1910 and 146 in 1911.

Edited:
Dave Hornisch had an interesting comment regarding the T206 and T207 issues...got me thinking, perhaps the T207 was kind of an Update (or "Traded") set to the T206?

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Posted By: barry arnold

many thanks Jason.

we'll continue to add names to the list.
i'm also eager to see what others in the t206 community of scholars think
of Dave's theory.
all the best,

barry

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Posted By: Jason L

This would be a killer idea for a nice little reprint set, I would think!
going off the recent "Cards that Never Were" theme, like we saw at the National this year...
You could call it T206 Update or Traded (like the more recent Fleer and Topps efforts)

featuring mock-up lithos in T206 style of all the players we've been naming in this thread.

apologies if this has already been somewhere...I haven't seen them

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Posted By: Rob

so, how many of these players (41?) were included in the later T207 set?

Rob

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Posted By: Anonymous

Bill Killefer
Fred Harkness

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

Didnt see this one listed yet......+

[img][/img]

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Posted By: Ron Rice

I've been enjoying watching the list grow.

I would like to add Cy Morgan who was 18-17 1.81 era in 1909 and 18-12 1.55 era in 1910. Also Fred Luderus who played in 1909-1910 but blossomed in 1911 with 16 homers and 99 rbi.

If you include Grover Alexander (who started in 1911), you might also include Vean Gregg who was 23-7 1.81 era as a rookie in 1911. I'd remove Kid Gleason from the list since he played no games 1909-1911 nor was he a manager at that time.

Great list!

Ron

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Posted By: jP

Charles "SeaLion" Hall -- pitched for the Boston Americans from 1909-13. Has cards in the M116,T207 & E90-1 sets amongst others.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: barry arnold

great to see this list rejuvenated!!!
keep 'em comin'.

many thanks,

best,
barry

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Posted By: Paul

No relation to me (I think). I've never seen him on any cards, but I haven't taken the time to research it further.

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Posted By: judson hamlin

back when this thread was first active, I started looking at the guys who were regulars in '08 to '09 that got shut out of T206. The batters who got the short end of the stick seem to be:

Altizer (Was/Cle/Chi(a))
Storke (Pitt/StL(n))
R. Thomas (Phil(n)/Pitt/Bos(n)) covered by the Ted Z theory
Hartzell (StL(a))
McConnell (Bos(a))
Gessler (Bos(a)/Wash)
Grant (Phil(n)) see Thomas


The above players all played as starters in '08 and all played in at least 80 games in '09

The next group also should have felt left out:

Austin (NY(a))
McMillan (Bro)
Clement (Phil(a))
Shean (Phil(n)/Bos(n)
Lelivelt (Wash)
Bemis (Cle)

All of this group were regulars in '09, getting their first full time gigs (except Bemis, who was a reliable #2 catcher for a few years).

Next time I get some time, I'll throw the pitchers out there.

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Posted By: Wade

Harry Wolter is another player who played during those years and has cards in T205, M116, T202, etc...

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Posted By: barry arnold

great work.
looks like the list has gone from 41 to 65---quite a jump and quick rejuvenation, I must say.
add your pitchers when you get a chance, Judson.

many thanks all,

keep 'em comin'

best,

barry

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Posted By: Mark L

Regarding Roy Thomas, starting in 1909 he became the baseball coach at the University of Pennsylvania and played only part time with the Phillies for a couple more years. Alan Storke died in March 1910. So maybe some of the omissions listed above were made because the players' careers were more or less over.

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Posted By: Mark L

Here comes one more. How about a card for Chick Fraser? In honor of Chick Fraser having lost 20 games for four different teams, I nominate him for a postumous t206. He pitched well for the Cubs in 1908 (11-9) and made one appearance in his last season, 1909. In addition to all this, he was Fred Clarke's brother in law.

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Posted By: judson hamlin

Storke died after, I believe, two other players pictured in T206 - Powers and McGann. He probably should have qualified for inclusion while active (and breathing). I'll try and get the pitchers list later this week.

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Posted By: Michael

I believe that there were 397 players represented in the T-206 set. For the years 1909, 1910, and 1911 Baseball-Reference.com lists 933 players that had a batting, fielding, or pitching stat.

If someone would like to do a quick compare on the names you can get the list of players at:
http://www.t-206.com/PlayerLists/AL.txt
http://www.t-206.com/PlayerLists/NL.txt

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Posted By: barry arnold

67 with some very interesting stories and areas for new research along the way! keep 'em comin' and let's see what Michael's suggestion opens up.
many,many thanks.

best,

barry

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Posted By: judson hamlin

Here are the leading 08-09 pitchers who got shut out of T206. Most were on Phil(a), Bos (a), StL (n) and Phil(n), which bears on Ted Z.'s theory. These guys all had ten or more decisions each year, or 15 or more in '09:

Chech (Cle/Bos(a))
Falkenberg (Was/Cle)
C. Morgan (Bos(a)/Phi(a))
Coombs (Phi(a))
Schlitzer (Phi(a)/Bos(n))
Long Tom Hughes (Was)
Charlie Smith (Was/Bos(a))
Leever (Pit) (okay, he was 8-1 in '09- close enough)
Sparks (Phi(n))
Corriden (Phi(n))
Moren (Phi(n))
Foxen (Phi(n))
Lush (StL(n))
Beebe (StL(n))
Sallee (Stl(n))
P. Wilson (NY(a))
Richie (Phi(n)/Bos(n))
Lew Brockett (NY(a))
Joe Wood (Bos(a))
Rowan (Cin)

The most significant of that group as of opening day 1910 would have been Morgan, Coombs, Lush, Beebe, Moren, Hughes, Moore, Richie and Leever. Falkenberg, Smith, Sparks, Corriden, Sallee and Wood would have been right behind. And all would have been better picks than many of the pitchers chosen. Tom Hughes (NY), Doc Scanlan and Harmon (Stl(n)) also could be included.

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Posted By: RayB

This is another of the long running list of scholarly and thoughtful threads on the Monster kicked around on these Boards.
Lovin' every minute of it guys.
Thanks.
RayB

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Posted By: barry arnold

great work, Judson!
i agree Ray; there is much new here to incubate.
anymore data t206 scholars?


best,

barry