OT: Michael Phelps

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Posted By: MVSNYC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe


let's not forget this Olympic Hero...

edited: Dennis, sorry i didn't see your post, but we were on the same wave-length

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"You, sir, are the greatest athlete in the world."

King Gustav V of Sweden, 1912

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Posted By: Anonymous

thanks, king

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Posted By: Michael Steele

Congrats to Michael Phelps. Regardless of what era were discussing, he is at the top of the list of discussion.

One comment on Lasse in '76. IMO, if "Pre" had been around for the '76 event (RIP, deceased 5/75), I feel Lasse would have only won one gold in 76. With that said, it was quite the feat to finish 5th in the '76 Marathon. However, Lasse Viren has been up for discussion for using enhanced performance drugs before they were tested. I don't think it was ever proved but it certainly has been debated.

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Posted By: Dave S

Lasse Viren was supposedly "blood doping" or blood "doping"...which was not against the rules in the '70's but certainly outlawed today.

Don't think we can overlook Al Oerter who won the Gold in 4 different Olympics..the best in the world for 16 yrs!

Carl Lewis was indeed tremendous..but he was also beaten quite a few times! Phelps wasn't. For a 23 year old kid to win 8 events when he was expected to win them is totally indescribable. If he chooses to eat, sleep, swim and nothing else who are we to judge. He accomplished what no other athlete has ever done, and still maintained a level of humility and professionalism that should make any American or athlete admire his accomplishments. The best ever? Who's to say, but certainly among them.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Viren was never accused of taking drugs as far as I know. The allegations, never proven, was that he had superoxygenated blood drawn out and then transfused back in. Sounds bogus to me.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Whether he is the greatest olympian every is really in the eye of the beholder, but he just had the greatest Olympics performance of all time....

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Posted By: Joann

I think what Phelps did was awesome, but I don't think you can call him the greatest athlete or even the greatest Olympian ever. The Olympics, by their very nature as a competition of very diverse sports, somewhat defy naming anyone 'best ever'.

Phelps competed in an area where there are lots of different versions of the event and therefore lots of medals given out. How can we call anyone best based purely on medal count? Other athletes may have dominated their sports too, but could only win one medal per Olympic games because that's all that was reasonably offered.

Take Teofilo Stevenson (sp?) the heavyweight boxer from Cuba - still to me maybe the best athlete I've ever seen in my lifetime. Three gold medals or something like that in the Olympic heavyweight category. If boxing was a sport where there were many competitions for the variations on the theme, he could easily have won more. As it was he had to wait 4 years between chances and still won 3.

I saw on one of the early TV shows about this Oly that China was bound and determined to win the medal count this time - the great victory in Beijing. So they looked at the competition and started heavy developmental efforts in those sports that give out lots of medals. For exactly that reason - it's "easier" for lack of a better word, to win medals in some areas. So they hit track and field, swimming and gymnastics particularly hard. Baseball? Heck no. Why? So they can spend all that time and money for a shot at one medal for the whole competition?

So ... hard for me to buy anyone as greatest Olympian, and certainly not based on medal count alone. Great Olympian - of course. Greatest? Mmmm not so fast.

J

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

If you want to compare a track & field athlete to what Michael did they would have to do the following events and win every one.

100 Meter
200 Meter
400 Meter
800 Meter
1600 Meter
4X 100 Relay
4 X 200 Relay
400 Meter Low Hurdle

The versatility that Phelps has with the mastering of every stroke is unique and most likely never repeated again. Keep in mind he lead off the mens 4 x 100 free relay with a time of 47.50 a American record.

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Posted By: Anonymous

To follow up the point above, you get only ONE medal for winning the (in my view) ultimate Olympic competition, the decathlon. Speaking of great Olympians, Daley Thompson -- who won gold TWICE (no one noticed the first time because of the boycott).

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Posted By: Dennis Mosley

Bobby, how about the Decathlon and Penthatalon. That's a total of 15 events, Thorpe finished first in 9 of those.I know it a matter of opinion. Mine is nobody compares to Thorpe.

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Posted By: Paul

This is a bit off topic, and it is only my own personal opinion, but I felt I had to respond to Bruce's original post. I was genuinely saddened when I saw Bruce equate success in any field to complete dedication to the task. And the reason I was saddened because, as an attorney, I have watched many of my former classmates and colleagues destroy their families and any semblance of a normal life as they placed their job above all else.

I think Bruce has also misstated the "target" that drives these super-dedicated attorneys at mega law firms. In the case of junior attorneys, they are required to work around the clock if they are to advance at their firm and achieve the pot of gold that comes with advancement. They are not working hard to become the best attorney ever. In the case of senior attorneys, many at the mega firms do not work that hard. Those that do work hard are often doing so to bring in new clients because their firm's compensation system requires them to do so in order to continue being well paid. Again, they are not working hard in an effort to become the best attorney.

In this way, I think they are very different than Michael Phelps. People can rationally debate whether the type of greatness that Michael Phelps has achieved is worth the sacrifice. But I think there's no doubt that the sacrifices made by many others, including the attorneys that Bruce mentioned, just aren't worth it.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I have seen the same thing and with the advent first of email and then the blackberry, our younger attorneys are essentially expected to be on duty or at least available all the time. Some of them do manage to find a balance but others live in a state of constant stress and remorse. The irony is that when it comes to advancement, hours count far less than talent.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

For what it's worth, while Michael Phelps has certainly sacrificed much of his personal life for swimming thus far in his life, the fact that at age 23 he's already won 16 Olympic medals and stands to make $100 million or so because of this does suggest that the sacrifice he made was well worth it.

And furthermore...Phelps won gold in races in which different strokes were employed; therefore, he was forced to race against swimmers' whose entire life is centered around that one specific stroke -- and yet Phelps smoked them all. And unlike winning a Decathlon, he couldn't have a subpar performance in one competition and make it up in the next one.

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Posted By: Andrew S.

"Goldman Sachs and the top 5 Hedge funds- they work around the clock and always focus on the target."

I heard that hedge funds are failing since the 1st quarter this year. Hasn't more than one manager has committed suicide since the economy started collapsing? Anyone else think the numbers are being cooked?

"Our economy is in the crapper because this country no longer produces anything tangible.
Steel? Nope. Electronics? Hardly. Automobiles? Don't make me laugh."

Agreed. American industry used to be a source of pride and not outsourced or mass exiting to Bangladesh. Notice how the infrastructure here is crumbling and beginning to look 3rd World? They used to mow along the interstates here, but now let the weeds grow 10 feet high. Cheap tar patches cover the freeways. It looks like the highways around Manila. Tax money for highway improvement must be getting siphoned into lawmakers' offshore accounts, and the guy who worked at GM is now working at McDonalds. McDonalds paychecks don't produce enough federal income tax revenue to keep a bridge from falling into the river.

"The only thing we "manufacture" are "financial products."

The Bush model measures success by how many fast food jobs are created in America.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

How did a thread on the excellence of Michael Phelps morph into such a senseless rant?

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Posted By: Rob D.

You seem surprised, Ken. I'm kind of amazed it took 60-plus posts.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hey Rob, I love your new avatar. It's EXTREME TO THE MAXX!!!1

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Posted By: Rob D.

As a certain national treasure once said, "If you're going to have a guitar-playing monkey, it might as well be on that DOES IT TO THE MAXX!"

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"How did a thread on the excellence of Michael Phelps morph into such a senseless rant?"

How, Kenneth?

Well, the senselessness was provided by a certain group of posters named "Bruce."

And I haven't seen any ranting at all.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Give the Bruces a break. All they're trying to say is that life ain't nothing but bitches and money.

Minus the bitches.

Ain't that right, B-Diddies?

-Ryan

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

The rant to which I was referring was the post above mine. As far I can tell, Bruce was merely giving an opinion on the source of Phelps' greatness.

And no Rob, definitely not surprised.

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Posted By: Brian

Spitz v. Phelps August 17 2008, 2:26 PM


I would give the nod to Phelps but it is not a no brainer.

Spitz could have won 8 golds if they had a 50.

Spitz's margins of victory were, I believe, generally larger. No photo finishes.

Spitz won the glamour event, the 100 free.

On the other side of the ledger, the relays are more competitive now and the pressure on Phelps was far greater. And Phelps had a much stronger debut than Spitz, who was a relative disappointment in Mexico City. And, what tips the balance for me is that Phelps won gold in an individual medley. Not quite the same of course as the impossible feat of someone winning an individual track or field event and the decathlon, but still...



This message has been edited by Peter_Spaeth on Aug 17, 2008 2:30 PM



I agree, Spitz would have won his 8th if the events were there. Spitz set 7 world records in his 7 events. Phelps set the world record when everyone else was also. In some events the 2nd place winner beat the previous record. Was there a swimming event where the World Record wasn't broken this Olympics?

Will someone possibly win more gold in swimming in one Olymics. Maybe. The events could be spread out over more days thus giving more oppritunity to be in more events. They said on NBC that Phelps could have raced in another event, but it was way to close to the times his other events finished.

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Posted By: Tim

Not only by what he did in the pool, but how he has carried himself outside of the water.

In 2004 he had the chance to swim in the final relay by winning his last event, but gave it up to let his teammate have the chance to win a gold medal.

If you watched the interview on NBC tonight when Phelps was confronted by one of the many guys that had picked on him as a boy, he simply acted as though he didn't recognize the guy.

The guy is class all the way. He is what we think a champion should be. And that is hard to find these days.

He deserves everything that is coming to him.

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Posted By: Alan

Well said, Tim...

On the other hand, I have heard that over the years, Spitz has been a very difficult, moody person.

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Posted By: PC

I haven't played golf with Tom Seaver, but I worked in mega law around the clock for 14 years, and I'm shocked there's been no mention of Eric Heiden as the greatest olympian.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Actually, PC, probably the smartest guy on Net 54 brought Heiden up yesterday afternoon.

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Posted By: Jason L

this is the only swimming thread that we'll see on this Board for the next 20 years.

definitely a head-boobing, drool-producing topic....ugh

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Posted By: PC

Jeff -- indeed! I glossed over the middle of this thread and missed it. I must still be tired from all those long days and far too many billable hours.

If Phelps were like Heiden, he would have swam and won the 50m and the 1500m. And I'm not taking anything away from Phelps. He's amazing.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

PC, I think part of Heiden's problem is that the winter games don't seem to have quite the appeal of the summer ones. That being said, I agree that what Heiden did -- at all those different distances -- was at least as good as what Phelps did here. It's so rare to see an athlete just totally dominates his Olympic sport like Heiden and Phelps have done.

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Posted By: Mike Dragon

while you guys are here arguing over Phelps being the greatest or not and if he sacrificed a personal life I have read reports that he is currently dating either Amanda Beard or superhot british model Lily Donaldson (google her) I would hardly call either of those two "sacrificing" a personal life.

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Posted By: Bob

Good article on this very subject from the LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-olygreatest15-2008aug15,0,6214465.story>

I read an article recently that said that not only is Michael Phelps NOT dating either of the above women but he doesn't date in general. I guess next someone will post that he is involved ion a threesome with Paris Hilton and Britany Spears.

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Posted By: Michael Dragon

article is not on the link. Hey I could be wrong we all know how the tabloids are I have just read several reports that he is linked to either one of those two and he does not talk about his personal life.

Personally I think it nobody's business what goes on in a celebrity's personal life, it is very unfortunate that we get all this stuff crammed down our throats all the time.

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Posted By: JK

"Tom Seaver and Bill Gates, among others, have a wife and family. So it is possible to be very dedicated towards a goal and still have some sense of normalcy."

Phelps is 21 or 22 if Im not mistaken. When he retires from swimming at age 26, Im pretty sure that he will have plenty of time to date, find a wife and raise a family. Moreover, he will be able to do so without any of the financial concerns that affect most Americans on a daily basis. On top of that, my guess is that he enjoys what he currently is doing - how many people can say that about our jobs?

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Posted By: Martin

Phelps achievements in these games and the previous Olympics in Athens have been nothing short of phenomenal. Plus, he is likely to compete in London in 4 years time and will be favoured to win at least 5 golds assuming he maintains dedication and is fortunate enough not to get injured. Assuming London is his final Olympics he may exit swimming with 18 or more gold medals which may never be matched.

As for greatest Olympian that is really really difficult to determine because as previously mentioned many athletes i.e boxers are only able to enter one event at an Olympic games thus reducing there chances of winning more than one gold medal over the course of their sporting career.

I have some more names to consider though (not previously mentioned):

Emile Zatopek (Czechoslovakia) 1952 Olympics he won the 5000 metres then the 10000 metres at the last minute entered his first marathon which he duly won - breaking the Olympic record in all three events. In the 1948 games he won the 10000 metres and finsihed runner-up in the 5000.

Sir Steve Redgrave (GB) - won gold medals in rowing in five consecutive Olympic games from 1984-2000.

Ole Einar Bjoerndalen (Norway) - won four gold medals, including all three individual events and one team relay, at the 2002 Salt Lake City Winter Olympics in Biathlon.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Of all the athletic endeavors in the world I would think the training involved in swimming -- the endless laps in the pool, no scenery, no social component, just back and forth for hours on end -- is the least rewarding.

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Posted By: John

"Bruces...do you guy(s) care about anything other than money? Just curious."

Eric...good question but hey....

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It is interesting to note Eric Heiden not only went on to race in the Tour de France and won the US National Cycling Championship, but got an M.D. from Stanford and is currently a professor of surgery at University of California- Davis. So it's fair to assume he had an overachiever personality by nature.

Heiden and I are from the same town. His dad was a surgeon and Eric grew up in one of the richest neighborhoods in the city.

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Posted By: Rob D.

John,

You might try to fit Sir Edward Tiger Woods in that thought balloon.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Continuing on with my relentlessly negative ways...has anyone ever met a swimmer who was good at any sport other than those which take place on/in water? I had a few buddies in college who were swimmers and once on land they were basically clumsy and unskilled at all other sports.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

Johnny Weissmuller could swing a mean vine.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A track coach once told me that the top pole vaulters are the best athletes in track, as top pole vaulting requires speed, strength and agility.

I remember reading an article about two world class marathoners who owned a running shoe store. Occasionally a shoplifter would run away with the unpaid for goods on his feet, and one of the store owners would go after him. The store owners said they often didn't always catch up with a shoplifter right away, but sooner or later they always caught up.

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Posted By: Jay

Paul--A good friend of mine at Stanford was a swimmer and an All American Water Polo player. He was also a great baseball player, a fantastic football player and in general one of the best all around athletes I ever met.

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Posted By: leon

With the recent record divorce settlements it might be advisable for Phelps to get a maid and a hooker....then he can send both home when done and still have his money too, except for the few dollars spent on their services........Hey, just trying to help.....

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Posted By: paulstratton

Jay-sounds like an interesting guy, maybe he was a football/baseball player who could swim and not the other way around.

Leon-Now that's some good advice.

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Posted By: Jim VB

<< I guess next someone will post that he is involved ion a threesome with Paris Hilton and Britany Spears.>>


Yeah? So what? Who isn't?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Sheesh Leon as moderator you should be setting a higher standard than the rest of us clowns.

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Posted By: leon

I just got home from work....Give me a little while and I will be setting a higher standard......(I thought it was pretty good advice too)

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Posted By: Anthony N.

If we're throwing out alternatives to Michael Phelps as the greatest Olympian of all time, I'll enter the resume of Duke Kahanamoku into the mix

He won a gold and silver in the '12 games, a pair of golds in the '20 games, and a silver (the gold went to Weissmuller, the bronze to Duke's brother Samuel) in the '24 games. He also made the US Water Polo team at the '32 Olympics. Had there been an Olympics in '16, at his prime, he certainly would've medaled in it as well.

Additionally he brought the sport of surfing to both the mainland US and Australia. He is in the surfing hall of fame, the swimming hall of fame, and the US Olympic hall of fame.

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Posted By: Cobby33

"Look at the mega law firms." LOL. Yeah- the very few, making money hand over fist, on the backs of the rest of the working fools. That's a great model to follow.