Jay Miller and Doug Allen

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Al wins this thread. Game over.


Doug, add me to the list of people interested in reading your book and gaining more knowledge on OJs.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Jay is working on the OJ book

Doug has the completed manuscript for the T206 book

Just so you can keep it straight

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Posted By: JimB

Having read both Doug/Art's T206 book and Scot Reader's, I would suggest combining the information in the two of those into one book. I have the two bound together personally as they have much complimentary information. I also look forward to Jay's OJ book. Perhaps doing it together with the T206 book is a good idea. Whatever format you all choose, I will be buying a copy. I would suggest using a lot of color photos.

JimB

P.S. Maybe we should all just ignore Jim Crandall. The blatant hijack of a good thread was the height of arrogance and narcissism.

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Posted By: John S

Rich,

I too am excited about both of these books. Thanks for the post.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

So I guess the answer is that he admitted to altering cards, does not do it any more and will not disclose how many he directed be altered?

Accoreding to Doug's prior response, SGC and PSA do not allow for anything that puts pressure on a card(crease removal)which Doug admitted to. So Doug did you know that this was their policy when you directed your people to remove creases or were you unaware that PSA and SGC forbid this practice.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- nobody wants to see any kind of unethical behavior in this industry. But Doug has already stated very clearly, in a company email (I think) that Mastro Auctions no longer does anything to a baseball card to improve its appearance or grade. Why do you keep harping on this? We all agree with you- altering is bad- but Doug has already addressed this in writing.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

As I said there are a number of questions--here are two

1)did you know that you were in violation of SGC and PSA policies while you were dircecting your people to alter cards?

2)How many cards do you estimate you altered--when did you start altering cards and when did you stop?

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Posted By: barrysloate

So let's say Doug comes on the board and says "Okay Jim, you nailed me, I personally altered 100 cards." How does that help?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

You would not like to know who altered cards and who doesn't--boy I would--it would make it a lot easier for buying.

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Posted By: barrysloate

How are we to keep track of previously altered cards? Even if someone told you which cards they altered how would you find them among a future pool of cards for sale?

If I told you I took a crease out of a 62 Mantle, would you closely inspect ever 62 Mantle that crossed your path, hoping to avoid buying that card? I think you are asking for information that will not make it any easier or safer for you or anyone else.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Rich, this thread can't get off topic again unless it first returns to the topic. THEN it could wander again...

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<You would not like to know who altered cards and who doesn't--boy I would--it would make it a lot easier for buying.>>

Jim:

You make it sound as if there are some people in this hobby who are nothing but bad....card alterers extraordinaire who do nothing but feed bad cards into the hobby. Why must it be so black and white for you? Even if there is a successful card alterer, his success is predicated upon his ability to pass his materials through grading companies. Once they are professionally graded, there are dozens, if not hundreds of avenues by which said person could get his card circulating through the hobby. Ebay, Auction houses, Ebay consignors, etc. Even some of the people whom I believe are card alterers (hi, Gary!) have at least accomplished rudimentary ways to get those cards into the hobby.

That's the whole problem, them. Once it is out in the hobby, where it goes is anyone's game. I hear and read stories of T-206s, T-205s and other pre-war cards that are traded, bought and sold, or otherwise trade hands at least half a dozen times over the course of a year or two. At which point, you've pretty much killed any chance of being able to simplify the problem by trusting some people, but not others.

Of course, the flip side of the issue is that a collector's best defense is to understand card alterations as best they can. Jim -- you mention in the past that in the 1980s, you purchased runs of sets from Alan Rosen, some of which contained altered cards. Have you inspected those cards to see what the alterations are? Have you inspected any of the cards in your personal collection? I believe that your biggest issue with this hobby is that you want to trust the grading companies to be correct 100% of the time, but you cannot. However, you do not trust yourself, or are otherwisde disinclined to personally examine your acquisitions to see if any of them are potentially problematic.

Jim -- at what point will you realize that you are in the minority? Yes -- many of us have concerns about card alterations. Me -- I've educated myself and figure I can do a better than average job on evaluating a card. But your fascination with this topic is akin to Gollum's fascination with the One Ring. The rest of us want to enjoy this hobby, which is why we participate in these and other forums. You have completed hijacked this thread (and another) simultaneously. Is there any chance that you will actually read the messages and tones that other collectors are using with you on threads like these? On occassion, it is amusing in a Peter Chao kind of way. But you've ruined another great thread, with the same premises that you frequently harp upon: not adding any new information and dragging up the same old ****.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

To me the issue is not the individual card. It is the person.

I ask myself would Barry Sloate knowingly have altered a card in his lifetime. To me the answer is 100 percent no. That makes me much more willing to do business with you.

Would Doug Allen knowingly have altered cards--yes--he admitted to it--how many? who knows? Would I buy cards from him--possibly but I would try hard not to.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I think I can attest to the existence of many, many people who have stopped posting on this board and have greatly reduced their readership here because of your paranoid, idiotic ravings. Doug has already answered your question and yet you (1) refuse to acknowledge it, (2) continue to hijack threads every time Mastro is mentioned, and (3) refuse to call Doug and talk about whatever bug it is that is up your @$$ despite his standing invitation for you to do so. I and many others I talk to are sick and tired of your antics which, as Al has pointed out, are nothing more than worthless grandstanding. Either drop it or leave.

I urge everyone who feels the same as I do to email Leon and let him know that you are sick of this garbage clogging up legitimate discussions of our Hobby.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Marc,

You are misrepresenting what I have said in the past. I have a couple altered cards that I got from Alan Rosen--I have zero problem cards from him otherwise--please get your facts right.

I like the message board to discuss and hear about serious issues--not to enjoy the hobby--I think its a serious issue--you don't fine.

Lastly as you know better than anyone I could care less what others think--I can be a minority of 1 or 3 or 5 and often am--others want to be popular on the message boards and never say anything that is actually interesting--at least to me.

Best to your family--i am in disappointed in you Marc--I expected better.

Jim

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Posted By: Matt

Jim - so what you're saying is that if someone committed come impropriety 20 years ago, and hasn't done it since, you still wouldn't trust them? You're not really into the whole people learning from their mistakes thing, are you.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Matt,

No--for example I would be willing to forgive JP Cohen for his crimes.

My requirement is that they come clean. All Doug needs to say is yes I altered cards over a period of years accounting for x number of cards and I sincerely regret doing this. Then he should say I did it or did not do it with the full knowledge that SGC and PSA consider this to be wrong.

If he did that I would forgive him immediately.

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Posted By: Matt

You have lofty standards for forgiveness - a public admission of wrongdoing and an apology. Of course, since they are your standards, you certainly can refrain from bidding on Mastro's auctions. The rest of us seem satisfied that he has agreed it is no longer done.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Fair enough Matt--

Would you feel differently if he never responded to my question and never admitted he did this.

With all the flack I am getting if I had never pressed the issue in the first place or never pressed him to elaborate later it would never be known that he altered cards and directed the alteration of cards and perhaps he never would have stopped.

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Posted By: Matt

Jim: "With all the flack I am getting if I had never pressed the issue in the first place or never pressed him to elaborate later it would never be known that he altered cards and directed the alteration of cards and perhaps he never would have stopped."

The flack you are getting is for continuing to push the issue after he answered the questions to our satisfaction. I appreciate you bringing the issue to light in the first place, but there was a time to let it be.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

no, he's just an attention slut

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Posted By: Steve Murray

"Would I buy cards from him--possibly but I would try hard not to."

Why don't you try a little harder. To buy cards from him would seem to me to be hypocritical inasmuch have you have branded him with the scarlett "A".

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Posted By: JimCrandell

There are some cards I just gotta have so I would bid--there are others that I might bid on that I would let pass.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thank you to those who appreciate me bringing the issue to light in the first place--now we will see if there is a public or private follow-up.

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Posted By: JK

This is great stuff - Jim, you keep altering the questions that you want Doug to respond to. First you wanted him to admit to pressing cards and state whether he has stopped that practice. Once shown that he has explicitly answered those questions; rather than admit you are riding a dead horse, you've added more questions for Doug to answer: how many, what was done to each, when did you do it, and on and on - as if that information could help you at all. Suppose Doug were to come on here and answer your additional questions - are we really to believe that you would then be satisfied? I dont. I think you would then simply come up with some other "issue" to press (no pun intended).

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I presume that AndyC88 has properly identified himself? If not his negative posts should be deleted.

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Posted By: JK

Hey AndyC88 - why dont you stop hiding behind your keyboard and identify yourself per the forum rules since you are not well known to the board.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Trolls rarely identify themselves- don't hold your breath.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

JK,

Thank you.

Yes my questions did change but if he came on and publicly addressed the following four questions I would stop and become a good customer again:

1)How long did you alter cards for
2)How manty cards during this period did you alter or did you direct to have altered
3)Did you know while you werte doing this that PSA and SGC considered it to be wrong
4)Apologize to the hobby for doing this. Thanks to most for their support.

Jim

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Check me if I'm wrong here Jim, but just a week or two back you were gushing over some Gary guy who has a reputation for altering cards - I did not see any public demands from you in that instance.

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Jim, Enough is enough. Stop hijacking other's threads. Can you not see how rude it is?

Why do you just call it "water under the bridge" as you did with reference to the number of altered cards in your collection?

Or better yet, why do you not disclose how many altered cards you have in your collection and Doug will disclose how many light wrinkles he has taken out and you guys can make it a contest and talk about it over breakfast which your secretaries can set up for you.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

I have not bought cards from Gary for a long long time. Every single card I bought from him I had graded and 100% of them graded.

Has he stated on here that he altered cards?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Good for you Jim....others weren't so lucky.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

As one famous person in the hobby who is in a position to know told me back then he was 100 percent legit.

Since then some people whom I respect(Frank Evanov for example)have had bad experiences with cards bought from him.

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Posted By: Jay

Joe and I, and several helpers like Kevin and John, are working on the book now and hope to have it completed later this year. We are pretty far along but are novices to the process which is why I am not being more specific on the date. All I can say now is that we will try to picture as many of the poses as we can, and it looks like we should be able to get to almost 2350 of the 2471(as of this ten seconds)known poses.

Doug--Perhaps we an make it a two volume boxed set.

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Posted By: John S

Awesome Jay, I can't wait. A great addition to the hobby.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, you just maligned that Gary guy who, as I have been informed via email, is a very well known doctor!

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Posted By: Richard

Jay - whenever someone says "That guy has forgotten more about the hobby than what I will ever know," it just makes me cringe.

There is so much knowledge trapped in the minds of some of the hobby veterans that will never see the light of day. Most of these people take this hobby knowledge to the grave. In this information and technology age when it is so easy to communicate through various forms of media, it is really a shame. As a relative hobby noob, I applaud and thank you for taking the time to share such information and allow others to learn from it.

Richard

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think most hobby veterans are willing to share their knowledge if asked. That said, I think the book that Jay and Joe are doing will be an instant hobby classic (kind of like "Gone with the Wind" ).

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Posted By: Richard

Barry - I have never owned an OJ before. If I ever wanted to learn about the issue and start collecting them, I would not pick up a phone to call Jay, as much as I'm sure he would want me to.

The fact that he is willing to put down on paper his knowledge about the issue so that not only current collectors can learn about OJs, but also those 10, 20, 50 years down the road, is commendable.

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Posted By: barrysloate

A definitive book on Old Judges, something that has never even been attempted before, is a monumental contribution to the hobby. If you ask me, this will be the most informative book ever written on a set of baseball cards. I too am excited to see it finished.

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Posted By: DD

Hi,
First of all, what a great gift to the hobby.

Can you briefly cover what the content will include, aside from the gallery? I am looking forward to buying a copy.

Thanks,
David

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Posted By: Steve M.

This is big time stuff. It could very well open up a whole new interest in the Old Judges. I especially look forward to seeing the Toronto McGuire.

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Posted By: John

Jim;

I think Doug answered this awhile back as others have pointed out. Doug it’s a good thing too because I intercepted an email that Jim’s next play was answer the question or the kitten gets it!



Perhaps Doug is just holding out for another Pizza party before he answers…maybe you should phrase your question a little more like this.

“Dear Doug, are you a senior executive of a dishonest company that pulls fast ones on us simple folk? If so please publicly admit it for me….oh and by the way what do you want on your pie?”

Man if this gets out of hand we could have another state of the hobby summit sponsored by Crandall & Dominos! And if theres no resolve in 30 mins everyone gets a free 2 liter Coke!

Oh and no need to order cheesy bread, Jim will be there that's enough cheese for everyone.

Jeff…too funny attention slut…my how are little troll has grown up.

So there are my thoughts Jim its been a awhile since we danced...go ahead get the waterworks ready...Leon is waiting by for your attack whistle.


P.S. Jim recently you stated in a thread that you just place a top all bids phone bid with these auction houses, you even said in the same line you trust these guys. So if you trust these guys to bid on your behalf with your money why the witch hunt on pressing creases the latter seems trivial at best.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I appreciate the multiple posts but you have to go to my thread to get my response--it does not pertain to the topic.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Isn't it about time for the applesauce guy to chime in?

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Posted By: Brian

priceless

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Posted By: Brian

and I still like applesauce


(I would have posted sooner, but I was flossing)...

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Now I feel better.

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Posted By: Brian

My pleasure.