Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?

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Posted By: dennis

i would only out an auction if i were 100% sure it was altered or a forgery. 75% not good enough and can hurt a sellers reputation if you are wrong. so i vote A

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Posted By: Matt

Tabulating:

A (4):
Marty
boxingcardman
martindl
dennis

B (9):
Steve Murray
Joe D.
MVSNYC
Rob
barrysloate
Jim VB
Al Simeone
Gilbert Maines
1880nonsports

C (5):
Jon Canfield
Josh Adams
Jeff Lichtman
Tony Andrea
Dave Hornish

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

That was fun!
Now lets have a poll on what constitutes a Net54 quorum.

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Posted By: Matt

Dewey hasn't defeated Truman yet, the polls are still open!

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

only serves to bring it to light. Most if not all people buying something want to know if there's something wrong with the item that isn't disclosed. Only my wife knows everything. I don't see the harm in discussing for the benefit of all - attributes that appear inconsistant in a relevent auction if you are reasonably sure it's in question AND you know something about the issue. As for shilling I assume it's going on some of the time when I bid in auctions. I try not to let it bother me as I could never tell. If your view of the world is negative I suppose you go into every transaction as if you're getting taken. I prefer a lighter view. I don't condone it; but I don't let it eat me up either. An artificial reserve is just like an undisclosed reserve in some auctions. Part of life......

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Posted By: Joann

Good thread. I've actually changed my view of this from reading some of the thoughts here, and considering the concept of certainty.

Questions as to alterations, forgeries or shilling? Never. Ask someone via email. Asking on the board is outing without any benefit of warning anyone of anything.

Believing there is alteration or forgery: Yes, but only if you are absolutely sure. Even 75% isn't enough to wrongfully accuse a seller or possibly out an auction that someone had missed.

Shilling: Never. You just can't be sure enough. Also, bidding history is there for any bidder to see and each bidder is better able to protect himself by looking at bidding history for signs of shilling. It's not the same as fake/altered, where HOBBY experience is in play and the signs more subtle or unique to a particular issue. It's not worth the false accusation or unnecessary outing.

So I guess I don't have a category. I'm not really an A because I don't think that Never is the right answer. I'm kind of like a B, but think it should be absolute certainty, not 75%.

Joann

(And one comment on it being impossible to out a properly listed auction. I increasingly disagree with that. I have a steady search regimen on ebay, and I still have people email me and tip me to items I would otherwise have missed - even if they are properly placed. You never know who will miss a single day or whatever, even in the main card areas on ebay. It could be that all it will take is one - just one - person that missed the auction to see it and really go after the item. Many auctions end with only two bidders that thought an item was worth 3x more than the next closest bidder. I guess that's why it would take strong certainty and a sense that someone needs a warning for me to out something live.)

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Posted By: Steve

*No.

*If you "win" a suspect item (or it has ended), immediately post the link here prior to payout. You'll find out in short order if it's a wise purchase. It's your Patriotic duty.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

definitely, C, if that is the most liberal outing of an auction. Let folks know if a lot is suspect.

I don't have that much of a problem with outing an auction outright. The auction is about the money the seller will pay, and that the buyer wants. It shouldn't be a hide and seek game. True, I'm tickled if I find something others overlook. But if I sell something I'd want all potential buyers to know of it. And if these cardprice sites are to have any validity, surely they should report what a card would sell for, and to remove that hide and seek factor.

I understand that lots of folks are against auction outings, but I think that it isn't such a bad thing. If I know some collector is after some odd seldom seen set, say maybe he has a few 1913 Cleveland Indian post cards, and is after the two he lacks... if I were to see one on eBay I'd let him know about it. That isn't so bad, it helps my collector friend and helps the seller.

Any of you guys collect 1913 Cleveland Indian post cards??? If you were missing one, would you like to know when one comes up? Oh yea!!!

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Posted By: Joe D.

be a 'b'

declare your 'b'-dom.


embrace the b.

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Posted By: Ken Wirt

I vote B.

I agree with John Canfield. Sometimes you just want more info about an item because you've never owned anything like it before. I realize that the best thing to do would be to privately email someone, but that can seem intrusive unless you are personal friends. I've never met anyone here in person (hope to someday), but generally trust the board's opinion as a whole. This can, indeed, be a dilemma.

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Posted By: barrysloate

One problem I have with this idea about outing an auction for shilling:

If you suspect somebody is shilling his auction...and you go on a public chatboard and out him...and you turn out to be wrong....you are going have one really angry seller, and he has every right to be angry.

And I can assure you some of the time you are going to be wrong. It's putting it in print for the whole world to see that bothers me. You better be 100% certain if you are going to take that route.

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Posted By: andy becker

"i would only out an auction if i were 100% sure it was altered or a forgery. 75% not good enough and can hurt a sellers reputation if you are wrong. so i vote A"

how true.


shill bidding is speculation at best, under no circumstances am i in favor of making accusations that cannot be proven.



and fwiw matt, i know you were trying to do the right thing this afternoon. i don't think it's ever appropriate to "out" a current auction, but your intentions were noble. in the end, they're just baseball cards. no biggie.

now, if these were football cards.....

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Posted By: Joann

Ah Joe - you can tell I'm just dying to be a B, can't you?

Joann

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

And in my hour of darkness
She is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom
Let it b

Let it b, let it b
Let it b, let it b
Whisper words of wisdom
Let it b

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Posted By: Matt

I think we should have a separate poll for whether outing an auction do to probable shilling is better or worse for the seller. In this thread a few posts intimated that it was worse for the seller and he should be angry. In the other thread people were suggesting it was driving up the price, which is good for the seller.

I also don't see a difference between shilling and doctoring in this regard; if someone is 75% sure the card has been doctored, and turns out they are wrong, the seller would be just as upset as he would be if they were wrong about shilling. So, the wrath of the seller wouldn't seem to be a reason to differentiate between options 2 and 3.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

To me, shilling is of no consequence, I am a sniper. Therefore, it is not a reason to out an auction.

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Posted By: Marty

Was this auction shilled?
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=120172274063
It is closed.

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Posted By: dennis

i think that the auction was not shilled.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I agree, that auction was not shilled. The major (in # of bids) bidder has a history of buying baseball cards.