My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

I have too many books on my "need-to-read-someday" list to ever get to this o'Keefe fellow's book. It's definately behind Hemingway's 'To Have and Have Not' and B. Traven's 'The Treasure of the Sierra Madre'. If they put "The Card" in the seatback of an airplane I might choose it over the complimentary airline magazine.

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Posted By: tfever

The following pic shows the red line (cross) on "The Card". It is pretty light and looks like the proof cross. I collect t206 oddities and have cards with such red proof cross as well.

"The Card":





My other T206 with similar red proof cross:

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

That line is not anywhere even close to the border. This would seem to undercut Alan Ray's credibility/memory of the card, if indeed his contention is that he thinks the card is trimmed because the portion of the card with the line is missing. Even aside from the fact that the line is still there, his story could only make sense if at the time he owned it the line had been very close to the border.

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Posted By: Joe

Well, now that Doug Allen has, ahem, straightened things out on that other post, perhaps he can talk to his boss and put "The Card" controversy to rest once and for all.

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Posted By: JK

MW said: "It is a very thin, short, red line somewhat similar to what is commonly seen near the bottom of the E90-1 Cy Young, only much lighter."

Sorry, but to me, that line looks nothing at all like the red printer's lines found on the e90-1 Young below:

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Posted By: MW

tfever,

Thanks for posting the enlarged image of the top of the T206 Wagner. Although light, the red line is clearly visible and should not have been missed by O'Keeffe -- especially since he uses it as a "key piece of evidence" in his book. That is not to say that there is necessarily any malevolence on his part; I just don't think he has acquired enough knowledge about vintage baseball cards, particularly T206s, to write authoritatively about the famed T206 Wagner.

On a similar subject, I do not know why some continue to write that the card is undersized or has bat ears. I have closely examined it and it possesses neither of these undesirable qualities.

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Posted By: leon

It could just be me but, to me, the Wagner left top corner does go up ever so slightly.....again, could just be me but I think I see it....

edited as I meant to say "left" top corner

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

It's not just you Leon..

looks batty to me.

martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I disagree on the bat-ears contention (though I agree with almost everything else you say Leon ). I think that top left (looking at it dead on) corner has a nick in it, and some of the under card (grey stock) has 'fluffed' out a little as happens sometimes to a nicked corner.


JMO



Daniel

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Posted By: John Basilone

edited this post....


John- I am told that this was in fact not what was said by MW. I can't allow folks to post things that others said without seeing some proof. Please provide unequivocal proof to me and you can post whatever you want. To me this is not too much different than posting a private email with respect to it being potentially manipulated before it's posted. I am not saying it was but I have been told that certain parts of this were not said......Again, show me proof and you can post.....thanks much....leon aka moderator dude....

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Posted By: John Basilone

Leon -

Can I post a link to the CU thread in which the post originated from?

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Posted By: John Basilone

...

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Posted By: leon

Yes, you may post a link to the CU board....

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Posted By: John Basilone

too much old garbage on that thread. I decided to just delete it.

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Posted By: JK

I guess the real question is, did the person posting on MW's behalf, post what MW asked him to post?

Either way, I'd sure like to hear what Mike has to say on the matter.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Interesting. I found JO's comments to be especially riveting.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

In the first post on the CU board there is a link to a thread made by Dan McKee on the Net54 board....all of MW's posts were deleted by Leon two years after the thread was started. Why?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Leon, why were you deleting MW's posts years after they were posted?

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Posted By: leon

I deleted some old posts/threads that were very provocative quite some time ago. I was trying to clean up the board....I also deleted certain other threads before Jay and I got into it and I made the general rule of not deleting threads. Live and learn...regards....

edited spelling

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Posted By: Richard Simon

And I thought autographs were bad,,, .
It appears to me that the most important point being made in the book, (by an author who has exposed many faults in sports memorabilia collecting (see some of his past NY Daily News stories), is that the card has been trimmed.
The card was noted as trimmed by PSA and by Bill Heitman. A major authentication service (which has its faults) and a leading expert on T206 cards.
Enough said,, this is not my field, but I thought I should get this off my chest.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for chiming in this morning....quick question. You said PSA deemed the PSA8 Wagner "trimmed". I didn't see that anywhere and it's graded an 8. Where did you get that info? best regards

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Posted By: sagard

I think he's inferring to the rumor the "card" was originally rejected, then later graded an eight.

This thread has been very interesting. Am I mistaken or are some of the biggest critics of the recent book formerly some of the biggest critics of the card?

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Posted By: Joseph

Leon writes to Richard S:

Thanks for chiming in this morning....quick question. You said PSA deemed the PSA8 Wagner "trimmed". I didn't see that anywhere and it's graded an 8. Where did you get that info? best regards


One of the main premises of the book is that the card is "trimmed" or more specifically, cut from a sheet. After reading much that has been posted on these boards over the past few weeks it seems to me that the general consensus HERE is that "The Card" IS cut from a sheet.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Haven't we learned ONE thing from this whole mess...

and that is that there was only ONE Honus Wagner card on the uncut sheet of T206's that was originally found?


Wasn't there always some speculation about how the T206 sheets were printed and how perhaps the same player appeared either above or below his own card?

I think we can safely assume that there was NOT another two or three Wagners on this Piedmont sheet... or Mastro would have done the same with them and we would see them in the hobby.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Leon - According to my reading of the book, Bill Hughes who was the grader for PSA, deemed the card to be trimmed.

--



I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: JimB

According to the book, Bill Hughes, PSA grader at the beginning and periodic high-end card dealer graded the card for PSA. He is quoted in the book as saying,
"I am aware it was part of a strip. We were aware of this when the card came to PSA and I graded the card. This particular card was obviously cut, but if it had been a discusting card that was cut, of course we would have graded it 'trimmed'. This card was fresh in every way, brand new looking in every way....Because of the freshness, the great color, the white borders, you know, the card basically looked new. It looked like a card that had come out of the factory and was never packaged, no tobacco stains, nothing wrong with it whatsoever. By virtue of that, the card really warranted being graded as the best example..... THis card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it. Just look what it has done for the hobby." p. 195 in The Card.

JimB

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

What kind of justification is that for slabbing a card cut from a sheet?

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Posted By: barrysloate

If that was Bill Hughes' take on it, wouldn't it merit a qualifier of some kind? The fact that it is the best looking of the known Wagners is a valid statement, but his logic does not constitute it receiving a PSA 8. That is really bizarre. Now I'm going to have to read this thing.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

So if the head grader for PSA said this than .......

Does this not say that PSA will grade a card known as sheet cut IF it is the best or deemed good for the hobby by them. Them being PSA.

How do they justify that ? Has this been done for other cards ?

Not good imho.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

If it was perfect "nothing wrong with it whatsoever" it should have been a 9.

What do we know that would help us to assess Mr. Hughes' credibility on the subject?

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Posted By: peter chao

JimB,

Thanks for pulling out the Hughes quote. As far as I'm concerned it's pretty damning...he's basically saying if it's high quality trimming then it's okay. What kind of criteria is that.

Peter

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Peter C., anybody can say anything, you as a lawyer should know that. I would prefer to learn more about Mr. Hughes before crediting his statement at face value.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Damn, that's hilarious. The power of the slab! Woops, I mean the power of the flip IN the slab!

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

So Bill Hughes graded the card in 1991 and for the first time has now revealed his opinion 16 years later to Mr. O'Keefe? And by way of answering the obvious question why the hell did you grade it if it was trimmed, he comes up with that bogus explanation? I am not buying yet, sorry.

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Posted By: JK

Perhaps Hughes' reasoning is also the explanation for the numerous hi grade cards slabbed by PSA that collectors around here believe to be trimmed.

In other words, give them a nice enough card regardless of who it is, and it will get slabbed even if trimmed. Only the mid and low grade trims will be rejected. What wonderful news for the card doctors out there.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

I also noticed that Richard mentioned the fact that Bill Heitman also stated that the card was trimmed. For you that have doubts about Huges, I am sure you don't feel that way about Heitman. If you also read the book you find out that McNall knew as well.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

What is the basis for his claim? Is it opinion based on seeing the card, or first (or second) hand knowledge?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

There is no way PSA would officially support Hughes' reasoning. None.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Number 1 Huges worked for Psa and was there number one guy at the time. Number 2 If was no secret to Gretky and McNall then I don't belive it was a sercret to Joe Orlando. If you read the book you will also see that Josh Evans from Lelands was quoted by O'Keeffe that Mastro told him it was trimed.

Read the book.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Wow,

I even got a mention in the book on page 193.

Just finished it myself. I must say it does make for some interesting history on the card.
I also have a hard time ignoring the parts about Josh L. and the aformentioned Hughes regarding it being trimmed.

Just to much kinky stuff seems to follow Bill Mastro around for me. I consider myself an honest person and think i made the right choice in avoiding his auctions with all thats been admited to on this forum. As
well as what many longtime trusted friends say.

To many other place's to spend my hard earned money. I'll stay away from the ones who seem to have the stench of fraud on them.

I never gave much thought to the whole ad thing. But the more of this stuff that comes out. The more i see the problem with a company like Mastro paying to advertise to a captive audiance like us. Can all here be objective ? I really don't see how. Human nature is what it is.

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Posted By: jeffdrum

I've never bought a single thing in their auctions and I can say that their advertising on here won't affect my decision to either way. I see it as a non-issue.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Now there is a damning piece of evidence O'Keefe saying Josh Evans told him that Mastro told him. Suppose Bill Mastro did trim the card, why would he tell Josh Evans? And why would Josh Evans first reveal this to O'Keefe?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think more significant of all is the fact that neither Evans nor Mastro have made any public comment about suing O'Keefe for libel.

There's your answer.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Jeff,

If said statements were untrue. Would that mean a suite would be forthcoming ? And if so. Would we even know ?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

A suite?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Jeff that doesn't mean anything. Assume Mastro did not trim the card. What are his damages if someone says he did? And did O'Keefe actually say he did, or did O'Keefe report the contents of conversations he had with others who made that claim? Either way, Bill Mastro is best advised to lay low, not stir the pot any further, and let his auctions continue to prosper. This won't hurt him one iota IMHO.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I don't think that Bill Mastro wants to be known as someone who knew the card was trimmed and kept his mouth shut for all these years. That would make him appear as if he cared more about money and his business than the good of the hobby, no? At the very least, wouldn't he make a public statement to dispute what was in the book? I hear crickets coming from the Mastro camp instead.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

He has already denied it many times, Jeff, including in an old article by O'Keefe that (I think) is on t206museum.com This is not a case of silence is an admission.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Interesting. So what is the incentive to make up such a story about Bill Mastro?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I cannot comment directly on Mr. O'Keefe's motives, or who might have an interest in a story that puts Mr. Mastro in a negative light, etc. Michael Wentz certainly has pointed out some issues with Mr. O'Keefe's credibility earlier in this thread or perhaps it was on another thread. In any event, I have no idea if the card is trimmed or not, and it may well be, my only point is that one should be careful not to reach conclusions based on inadequate evidence. At this point, I tend to discount the he said she said stuff and find more compelling eyewitness observations of the card and the comments of people with knowledge of historical context who can make reasoned arguments based on the Piedmont back, etc.