OT: At least 22 Dead at Virginia Tech

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Posted By: JimB

Joe,
I am sorry if I misunderstood or misconstrued what you were saying.
JimB

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Posted By: JK

Must every thread in this forum turn into a political discussion pitting the right vs. the left? This thread, IMO, was started to express condolences and focus on the tragedy - not to discuss who's to blame, possible lawsuits, gun laws, etc. Moreover, allowing this thread to degrade into yet another argument is disrespectful to those who lost their lives. So, if we cant keep this one on topic, then it should be locked and we should get back to discussing baseball cards.

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Posted By: brian

if they didnt have access to a gun, they will just go set a building on fire or set off a bomb and kill even more people than the number achieved with a pistol. if someone is intent on wreaking havoc they will find a way and all gun laws do is take it from the law abiding and provide the violent criminals with easy victims and lots of guns to buy on the black market.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Josh is corect; this is not a political issue but a human tragedy. And while I would support some gun law reform, I doubt it would have prevented this wacko from committing the crime he did.

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Posted By: Joe D.

no reason for an apology on your part.

I just wanted to clarify my position.

I apologize if I appeared argumentative.

Regards,
Joe

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Posted By: David Smith

Mike,

Yes people can be killed with a knife or a snow shovel but you have to get up close to them. How many people could an average person kill with a knife or show shovel from 20 feet away?? Also, even if you hit your target, how injured are they going to be?? Not to mention once you have thrown the knife or snow shovel, you are going to have to go pick it up so you can go after your next target.

Joe D,

If there were less guns and mostly criminals had them, then the current laws on the books would work better and the people who use guns for illegal purposes would be jailed more often and for longer periods. As it is now, almost ANYBODY can get or own a gun, so when they use them illegally and are caught and go to trial, if convicted, they are not going to the max and most likely are going to get out early.

Brian,

A mad man will make a bomb or start a fire to injure and kill people? Maybe but most Americans are too lazy or stupid to do such a thing. Plus, with those type of weapons you are not sure that the target will even be injured. Those types of attacks take time and planning. A gun is easier and less complicated to use. I haven't heard of children making bombs and accidentally blowing themselves up. I haven't heard of two people getting in a bar fight and one going back to his truck and retrieving a bomb and coming back in the bar and blowing the first person up.

My (soon to be) Brother-in-law is currently in jail. Why?? Because he held my Sister hostage for three days. She was naked and beaten during that time. How did he keep her in the apartment that long? He tore out the telephones, smashed the cell phones and had a gun. Matter of fact, once the Police arrested him and took him away, they searched the apartment and found over 20 guns including an Uzi and thousands of rounds of ammunition.

My Brother-in-law is not SMART enough to make a bomb and if he had used a knife, snow shovel, toothpick, etc. my Sister could have over-powered him. The only way he controlled her for those three days was with a gun.

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe D., Guys

Joe D. there's no need to apologize for being argumentative, if you weren't you wouldn't be posting in this forum.

I don't understand why people don't just look at countries with no gun laws. In Taiwan it has been extremely successful. Make the penalties for possessing a gun extremely harsh, something like life imprisonment.

It's true that only hardcore criminals would possess guns but here's the silver-lining, the police would actually have the upper hand. Instead, of the situation we have here in the U.S. where the police stand a 50% chance of being outgunned by the bad guys.

Peter

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Posted By: David Smith

Also Peter, someone who is a gun proponent said yesterday on TV if all the sudents had guns on them then this wouldn't have happened because they would have shot the person.

Someone else countered that may be true but if the Police came to a dorm and EVERYBODY was armed, who would they know is the shooter? Also, what if someone had a grudge against another person and used the original shooting as cover to shoot the person they were angry with??

I don't own a gun and have only fired a couple in my life. This is because I have a bad temper and I KNOW that if I did own one, the temptation to use it would be so great that I probably would shoot someone.

It is only with age, counseling and Zoloft that I am a much calmer and nicer person. However, if I were 24, in College (like the gunman) and owned a gun,
what happened at Virgina Tech could have been something I would have done. I am not proud to say that just acknowledging that with me it could have been a possibility. Thank goodness I never did something like that because collecting Pre-War baseball cards would be hard to do on Death Row and even harder if I were dead.

David

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Posted By: barrysloate

The alleged shooter's photograph and name are now online. Many of the students knew him and described him as a moody loner who rarely ever spoke and wrote papers with bizarre images- exactly the kind of profile you would expect from someone this sick.

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Posted By: Dan

ScottIngold I agree with your statement earlier.

As far as the rest of this, yes, it takes a weapon of some type to inflict this type of bloodshed but it is ultimately the person whom yields the weapon and uses it regardless of the type. The fact remains that there will always be weapons out there whether or not we do away with them or not.

The problem is this... when Americans welcome with open arms public hangings of people whom conduct violent crimes and stop with all this panzy liberal garbage and welcome some harsh, hard, true, immediate and real punishment for violent crimes against humanity, then I feel at that point people of all ages will rapidly see that the criminal mind and element is not welcome in the US.

But nooooo, we are too worried about the criminals feelings and what caused them to act out and rape our wives or daughters, murder our loved ones, assault our family or friends, etc while our decent and good citizens in the US live in fear. Many routinely argue that we must get to the bottom of their reasoning for being a criminal and love them and "fix" them and make them whole again... RIGHT????? NO, I say NO!!! I say send them to Hell where they belong and do it in a public way so people take notice that if they decide to take someones life, they have two appeals and after the second appeal it is BYE BYE in the nearest and strongest hanging tree.

I am a God fearing man, just want to add that so no one thinks that I am some lunatic.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dan- the killer is already dead. It's too late to punish him.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Again, never mind.

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Posted By: Dan

Man, why is it that the obvious point of what I wrote has missed you? No kidding he is dead.

The argument is not about this idiot, it is about the criminals in the US vs whether or not guns should be allowed... guns are bad only when in the hands of an idiot like the guy from VT. Guns are good when in the hands of someone responsible, who maybe hunts or collects or or or... The fact remains, criminals are not held accountible and are allowed to get away with... well, murder. They go away for a few years and get "fixed" in prison or worse, they learn nothing and then they walk, not because they have good behavior or fixed, because the prisons are overflowing and it is the logical thing to do.

What I wrote was, when we start making examples of murderers, people of all ages will see that crime is not going to be tolerated and violent crimes will certainly not be tolerated without major consequences. Major consequences like being put to death with no worry about a "life term" < a total joke. How can you make a destitute person upset when you offer him life in prison? Three hots and a cot < three hot meals and a place to sleep for those of you that don't have the military lingo.

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Posted By: Anonymous

For those who keep on mentioning the snow shovel. "That is called sarcasm" my friends. If you don't understand what I am saying, please stop commenting. Obviously no one is going to kill 33 people with a snow shovel. What I am saying is that it takes a person to pull a trigger, stab someone, etc. etc. it takes the action of a person. Instead of a shovel I could have said, hammer, chisel, pipe, rock, etc. Etc. Without a human to pull off an action, there can be no dire consequences. IT IS THE "PERSON" WHO DID THIS NOT AN INANIMATE OBJECT. I am not an gun advocate. But stop blaming everything and everyone, except for the piece of garbage who performed the act. Blame him.

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Posted By: Dan

Mentions NOTHING about right to protection for crimes!

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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Article. I.

Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section. 2.

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Section. 3.

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.

Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.

No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

Section. 4.

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

Section. 5.

Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

Section. 6.

The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.

Section. 7.

All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States: If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section. 9.

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another; nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

Section. 10.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.


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Article. II.

Section. 1.

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows:

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President.

The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.

The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Section. 2.

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.

Section. 3.

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.

Section. 4.

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.


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Article III.

Section. 1.

The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Section. 2.

The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

Section. 3.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.


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Article. IV.

Section. 1.

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Section. 2.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

Section. 3.

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Section. 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.


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Article. V.

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.


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Article. VI.

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.


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Article. VII.

The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.

The Word, "the," being interlined between the seventh and eighth Lines of the first Page, the Word "Thirty" being partly written on an Erazure in the fifteenth Line of the first Page, The Words "is tried" being interlined between the thirty second and thirty third Lines of the first Page and the Word "the" being interlined between the forty third and forty fourth Lines of the second Page.

Attest William Jackson Secretary

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

G°. Washington
Presidt and deputy from Virginia

Delaware
Geo: Read
Gunning Bedford jun
John Dickinson
Richard Bassett
Jaco: Broom

Maryland
James McHenry
Dan of St Thos. Jenifer
Danl. Carroll

Virginia
John Blair
James Madison Jr.

North Carolina
Wm. Blount
Richd. Dobbs Spaight
Hu Williamson

South Carolina
J. Rutledge
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
Charles Pinckney
Pierce Butler

Georgia
William Few
Abr Baldwin

New Hampshire
John Langdon
Nicholas Gilman

Massachusetts
Nathaniel Gorham
Rufus King

Connecticut
Wm. Saml. Johnson
Roger Sherman

New York
Alexander Hamilton

New Jersey
Wil: Livingston
David Brearley
Wm. Paterson
Jona: Dayton

Pennsylvania
B Franklin
Thomas Mifflin
Robt. Morris
Geo. Clymer
Thos. FitzSimons
Jared Ingersoll
James Wilson
Gouv Morris

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know Dan. I too want to see criminals get what they deserve, and then some. We are all very upset by this and I think it touches too close to home. Many on the board have children in college, and the whole thing is sickening.

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Posted By: Dan

Barry, you had me scared there for a minute. Yes, I agree with your last comment. This whole thing is terrible, my daughter is just up the road going to school and it shook me too. Sometimes I sit back and think about the things that are going on right now in this country that I love so dearly and wonder, what would our forefathers think of how we are doing. Would they be proud of how we have taken care of The America's or would they be a bit ashamed as to how we have gotten to this point? We have so many problems, starving wives and children right there in the US while we have dumped I think over 9 Billion in to this Iraq war (I have served two tours there and still do not really understand). So many countless other things, what is our direction? Where will we be as a country in 50 years? 100 years? Will our grandchildren thrive or not? It may take serious reform and earth shattering changes to make things get back on track I am afraid.

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Posted By: anthony

brad, i agree that people need to have a voice and jessie and al do help those people in need...but they are the first (and second) ones to put a label of racism on everything...i'm talking specifically when an American has the right to free speach goes and says something stupid, which may or may not be a slip of the tongue, get accused of being a racist...specifically Imus' comment. not saying it was right or wrong but i believe it was a stupid "slip of the tongue" comment that was made. al and jessie turned it into a racist statement....here's one that chick hearn said a few years ago. (lakers game caller for 100+ years) something similar to this when commenting on a slam dunk...

"wow!, he hung on that rim long enough to peel a banana" anyone who knows chick hearn knows that he was not a racist man, if so he was in the wrong sport to be announcing. but people like al sharpton and jessie jackson jump up and say that because the player was black, chick was calling him a monkey.... was that a dumb statement or racism on chick hearn's part? ...all i'm saying is that they should help the voice that needs help and stop assuming every comment made is a racist one...people do make mistakes (especially on this board, because not everyone can be right)

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Posted By: Dan

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


See, it doesn't say anywhere that after the speedy trial we can't take em' out back and kick the garbage out of them.

Sorry, today I am feeling quite full of vengence!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dan- your two tours of duty in Iraq must have been awful. I commend you for surviving it in one piece.

I don't know where the country is going in the future, but at this rate, probably downhill.

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Posted By: Dan

I was and am proud to have served and continue to serve, just went over 21 years of service. I would do three more tours if necessary.

In regard to your comment about "downhill", sadly I tend to agree. If history serves as a lesson for our future as a World power, we must look at all the great empires of known history and reflect on what brought them down and the duration that they were super-powers. The nice thing about the military is there is a lot of spare time to read about things and to reflect, history is something that many Americans refuse to look at and realize that is could just as easily happen to us. We are nearly 250 years in to this endeavor, how many years to go? It is a logical question considering our current situations in trade, commerce, dollar vs any other form of currency, etc. or the fact that vast portions of the US have been bought up by foreign companies and investors and we owe Billions of dollars, while we are afraid to call in the marker on the Trillions that are owed to us. Ugh.

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Posted By: barrysloate

We will not stay the number one country forever. Other countries will soon pass us. They already have in education and health care, and our decline will continue. Maybe not in my lifetime, but eventually.

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Posted By: JimB

As a professor, I for one, would not feel better if all of my students had guns. My hunch is that would lead to more deaths in the long run.
JimB

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Posted By: leon

I agree that publicly flogging these murderers and rapists would cut down on the amount of them, drastically. Somewhere it says "an eye for an eye"....For Jim B- I think it's a Karma thing? (though I hope there is no violence in any good religion). Also, I believe we have a winner of the longest cut and paste, ever, on Net54. It's a good day on the board....and I still feel sorry for all of those families and people this wretched person affected. best regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know- we now have the entire U.S. Constitution on the board, in case anybody cares to memorize it.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys and Gals,
I thought I was having a bad day yesterday, until I saw the coverage of the VT nightmare on the TV in the Airport. I had spent over an hour in customs waiting on one checked bag,and spent another 2 hours running around the airport trying to get home to my kids, but it just wasn't meant to be. I spent the night in Houston and made it home today with only sore legs and and lack of sleep to complain about.
Things like this really keep you grounded on what's really important. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the victims families, so of which I think I know. Be well to all Brian

PS Barry, the Federalist papers is a must read for all Americans, especially those who want to know what our founding fathers were thinking.

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Posted By: David Vargha

I'm pretty conservative, have nothing against hunters, etc., but it is long past the time to ban handguns and automatic weapons.

Automatic weapons have been illegal to own privately for over 70 years now.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: anthony

david,
why punish the other 298 million americans who are not incarcerated for illegal weapon charges. stiffer penalties i believe is the answer, on most crimes...bring back the chain-gang...arizona has it and not only has crime dropped but the sheriff of mariposa county (i think thats the one) usually wins hands down with something like 85% of the vote.
depending on the state, possession of an illegal handgun carries prison time...california (specifically l.a. county) you'd be lucky to get 10 days...i think the current population is roughly 21,000 in l.a. county jails right now. i'd have to make a call to verify it.

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Posted By: Bob

I think anyone with a non-criminal background should be allowed to own a weapon but the NRA does everyone a disservice in attempting to buck any type of legislation forbidding automatic weapons. My 2 cents is this:
1) Anyone who commits a felony crime (especially a violent felony) and is convicted or pleads guilty and has a gun of any sort in his possession at the time forfeits his right to parole and must flatten his sentence. It is mandatory that he serve pen time.
2) Anyone who commits a violent misdemeanor offense such as terroristic threatening or domestic assualt, etc. loses his right to own a gun and upon conviction of being in the possession of a gun at a later date, has a felony charge levelled against him.
The only problem is that there would be so many thugs and bad-asses going to the pen we would have to let out the hot check writers and those sent to the pen for mere possession of drugs. Gee, what a novel idea, actually imprison the thugs and violent instead of the poor who commit victimless crimes (possession of drugs).

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Posted By: David Vargha

I think anyone with a non-criminal background should be allowed to own a weapon but the NRA does everyone a disservice in attempting to buck any type of legislation forbidding automatic weapons.

Please read my earlier post. Automatic weapons were outlawed by the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Anthony -- Were you talking to me? I was quoting an earlier post (thus the italics) I am in favor of harsher penalties for criminals and fewer restrictions for gun ownership by law-abiding citizens.


DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Brad

Anthony,

"not saying it was right or wrong but I believe it was a stupid "slip of the tongue"

Making fun of black women's hair plus (Nappy Headed Hoes!), What was Imus thinking!
Make-fun of any women's hair is a big no-no, specially a black woman's hair, kinda sensitive if you haven't noticed!

Imus is 80+ years old, white man and from the south saying this racist sh#t over the radio (We all know he knows better?)

Yes people do make mistakes but that was total uncalled for....

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Posted By: DJ

It was a tragedy. But let me ask you this: What if a plane holding thirty soldiers over Iraq was shot down without any survivors.

How much attention would that get with 3,300+ kids so far buried. My guess is that Paris Hilton's latest fling with a sports athlete would trump that story. We lose like 2 kids a day over there.

There is no way you can prevent any tragedy involving a "nut job". This kid was crazy. They say he signed his name with a question mark and refused to speak in class. Crazy people, whether it be Charles Whitman in Texas on top of the building or John Wayne Gacy or a former Southern California running back who turned his beloved wife into a Pez dispenser, they exist in all wakes of life.

I know there aren't any crazy on this Board (card collectors, crazy...we just overpay for old cardboard and bitch about the small numbers), but they do exist out there. It's those comic book collectors you have to look at with a shifty eye.

Indians, the Holocaust, Anything in Sudan (see "Hotel Rwanda", a jeep escaping through a road of corpses), Jim Jones, 9/11...

DJ

edited: Dave actually did research on the stats. Tx Dave.

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Posted By: David Vargha

How much attention would that get with 2,500+ kids so far buried. My guess is that Paris Hilton's latest fling with a sports athlete would trump that story. We lose like 8 kids a day over there.

The official KIA total is about 3,300 since May 2003. Not to diminish their deaths in any way, but the average number is about 2/day.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: James Feagin

Media attention is very interesting.. It seems like there are mass bombings killing dozens in Iraq every weekend and no one bats an eye at those. I also find it interesting that I've heard many comparisons to Columbine and the school shootings in Paducah, Jonesboro, Pearl and other places. However, this school shooting was completly ignored almost the day after it happened....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lake_High_School_massacre
Do shootings that happen at Indian reservations just not sell as well?

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Posted By: anthony

david, i mis-read...i apologize.

i was taking the quote that handguns and automatic weapons should of been banned a long time ago...sorry about the mix-up

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

..before he killed 32 and himself, spoke of "Debauchery."

Whatever that means...

God, how I hate guns!

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Posted By: Martin Neal

One of my daughter's good friends has lost her roommate to this deranged gunman. She has now returned to Charlottesville and, at this point, will not return to Blacksburg. I am just sickened by this tragsdy and really feel somewhat despairing of any solution that may prevent a similar event from occuring. I felt especially hopeless after hearing Pay Buchanan speak last night.

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Posted By: PC

.

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Posted By: Bob

PC, well said.

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Posted By: Darren

Lack of an honorable belief system.
Substance abuse.
Absence of meaning.
Mental illness.
Inappropriate values.

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Posted By: Dan

Well, hate to say it but this is true. Turn off the TV and even N54 (PC) to spend time talking at the dinner table and ask your children the tough questions and expect the tough answers, but be a family and show them that not one single thing cannot be solved over dinner.

Last thing, WOW, I got an award for the longest cut and paste, that is some serious competition. However, I must say that it was an important cut and paste. It is nice to get back and reread what we stand for.

Regards to all, Dan.

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Posted By: peter chao

What distresses me is that there are crazy people out there ready to shoot up some school and we haven't got a clue on how to identify them and prevent this type of thing from happening again. Hmmmmm...

Peter

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Posted By: David Smith

From all reports so far, Cho's ex-roommates, fellow students and some of the faculty KNEW he was WAY out there--ie, beyond the normal weirdness of some College students who are away from home for the first time and exploring things. One Professor even had him taken out of class after reading some of his plays. He then reported Cho to the Administration.

If all of this is true, then the VT Administration has some 'splaining to do, Lucy.

After the Professors report, how hard would it have been to call the kids parents and have them either come and talk to him or take him back home??

In fairness, maybe they did but so far VT Administration isn't saying very much about anything. Probably because their Attorneys are involved and they are trying to figure out how to NOT get the University sued for big time damages.......


David

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, no matter what VT does at this point it's getting sued. And no matter what it does at this point the school will probably never recover. Two shootings in one year? 32 dead? You want to apply to that school?

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Posted By: David Smith

Well, yes and no. First off, the first shooting was of an escaped prisoner by Police. Secondly, I am not thinking of going back to school right now and even if I were, VT is too far away for me because of family reasons.

However, if I were a student thinking of Colleges or Universities I wanted to attend, VT might be the first on the list if I were afraid something like this were going to happen again. I mean, don't you think EVERYBODY on that campus is going to be on the look-out for people who are troubled or just plain weird??

Look at how people viewed hijackers of airplanes before and after 9/11. Beforehand, passengers sat and did what they were told to do by the hijackers. Afterwards, there haven't been as many hijackings and of those that have occured many have ended because the passengers stood up and fought the hijackers. People are/were more aware of their fellow passengers and are actively watching out for suspicious things.

With this last killing spree, the thing I am worried about is a copy cat at another College or University or, more likely, at a High School. Another kid sees how much publicity this is generating and they think they can do the same thing and get the same glory.

I don't have children but if I did, I would be talking to them about fellow classmates and alert them to be on guard for strange behaviour, especially High School students. I would have them especially be aware of posts on places like YouTube or MySpace.

David

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Posted By: PC

.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

PC, probably, hopefully true.

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Posted By: Mike

It amazes me how some of this threads participants continue to conjur up dozens of silly scenarios, trying to explain an irrational human being. The courts had declared him mentally ill two years ago, and had been deemed a danger to himself and others. And to sit here and blame the school, and guns, is simply silly. but please continue....it makes for some interesting reading. As will the package he sent to NBC news between the killings. I wonder how long it will be before that gets on the web ?

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Posted By: barrysloate

When the lawsuits start in a few months, you can be sure they will blame the school.

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Posted By: peter chao

Mike,

Are you kidding me. This deranged killer had the nerve to send a package to NBC. That's what amazes me to no end. This killer could thoughtfully and methodically pull together the guns, ammunition, and a package to NBC, and nobody at Virginia Tech would blow the whistle on his actions.

Peter