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Posted By: Joann

I don't think I can sing kumbaya right now. I'm busy rotting in my little shack, in ignorant bliss, contemplating my life as an socially focused armpit collector and trying to decide if I'm offended by someone's description of a hobby in which I play no role because I do not collect investment-grade cards.

Joann

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Also Leon, to once again clarify I never said you hated me, I think I love the hobby more than anyone, and all I ever asked you to do was stop constantly getting in your digs at me on the board.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

Noone said you don't play a role--probably a diminished role but a role nevertheless. Just that more of the hobby is going over to high end graded cards.

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Posted By: Dave

You continue to be abrasive and pompous. The fires you seem to enjoy igniting are a throw-up fest to the hobby in general.

Dave

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Posted By: Joann

Oh. Ok. Well, thanks for that anyways.

Hmmm. Late for work so do I really want to go into this now?

Look. By measure of most money in auctions, the high end cards arguably make up more than 50%.

But by number of collectors, surely the low to mid grade collectors make up > 50%.

Perhaps owners of extremely rare cards could argue that they have a solid foundation in percent dollars in the hobby - maybe even more than half - and therefore they are the backbone.

Maybe the set collectors are the backbone of the hobby. If they all dumped sets into auctions at the rate that high-end singles get dumped in, surely the money realized from sets would exceed 50%.

By number of cards sold - not dollar value and not collectors, but number of cards sold, well then we are back to the low to mid-grades as representing > 50%.

So you see, the definition of backbone of the hobby, the greater-than-half group, etc is totally dependent on which measure you choose to use. And I don't know who elected anyone card-queen-for-the-day to decide that total dollars in auctions is the right measure.

Certainly the captains of industry among us will argue that sales and dollars are the only reasonable measure, but this is not commerce or industry. It's a hobby.

I suggest that the definition of backbone of the hobby is open to far more discussion, and representation of dollars spent it not necessarily the measure just because the high-dollar spenders say it is.

Joann

Edited to add: And I'll further suggest that maybe the backbone of the hobby isn't measurable at all. Passion, enthusiasm, the dogged research by people like Dan Bretta that truly love the hobby, general knowledge, etc - how can the group with these characteristics not be strong candidates for backbone???

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

Excellent points. You are an intelligent thoughtful woman and you may well be correct in many of your points.

I clarified my backbone comment shortly thereafter and said it was a poor choice of words and what I meant was that the dollar value of all cards transacted is in my opinion over 50% graded(the vast majority high-end graded) and growing rapidly.

Jim

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Posted By: Joann

Thank you Jim. I will drop the backbone comments.

J

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Posted By: JimCrandell

dave,

Sorry you feel that way over my opinions--here is a suggestion--ignore those posts where I offer opinions and post where you find interest. Your insulting comments are exactly what is wrong with the board.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I collect for fun. i said in a previous thread, I wish prices would drop quite a bit. the threads concerning cost, profit, loss, appreciation, future prices, past prices, good deal, bad deal, makes it sound like soybean futures. THEY are baseball cards. If the value of my collection dropped 50% in the next hour, I couldn't care less. It certainly would make hunting for the holes in my collection a lot more fun. "Does anybody remember fun"?

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Posted By: Dave

Quite the opposite. I find your "left field" ravings of great interest. I don't even know at this point if you believe what you say on here half the time or if it is just enjoyable for you to stir things up on the board.

The majority of collectors have went to high-grade? Again Jim...this is not the CU boards....this is not a majority of collectors putting together 1974 Topps sets...

Dave

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- to further Dave's point, a large number of vintage collectors on this board go after rare and obscure material, much of which doesn't even have a single example that has ever been graded PSA 8. So if you like E103's, E107's, T222's, or any number of condition sensitive issues, there would be nothing to buy.

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Posted By: Tom Botticelli

IMHO - I believe the hobby is really seperated into two spheres: One is the measurable part, the price paid, which the explicit values are easily measured and seen. The second sphere is the implicit values, which are the unseen rewards, the friends made, learning about the history of the game, interacting with collectors and the immeasurable knowledge being shared by everyone on this board. To me, these two spheres make up the hobby, but I don't believe one outweighs the other. I think the problem really lies between what is easily measured and what is not easily measured. I value the second sphere more because I receive higher rewards and enjoyment from the interaction between collectors and from learning about the history of the game then from paying high values for pre-war cards. I am in no way diminishing the people who receive higher rewards from buying high grade cards it is just different then what I value.

Thanks,

Tom

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

What this HOBBY needs is about another 1000 Jim Crandalls.

Then, there would be so much frenzy over grades, card soaking, slabbing of slabs, population reports, and the like, that the hobby of card collecting would completely crash (I would hope). The JCs could march off. Then the rest of us who just like to collect cards and aren't that concerned about card values or whether someone touched a card, the rest of us could resume card collecting.

So I'm all for Jim, and a thousand more like him. Let them crusade against everything. "So Be It!"

My personal card collecting hobby focuses on the players and the history of the game, reaching back in time with pieces of cardboard and paper (I kinda like the little strip cards, didn't at first) that are contemporary with the players' careers. My hobby is not about seeking out a PSA 8 or 9 of anything.

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Posted By: Dave

I thought I'd post this for you Jim. Obviously it is a PSA 2...which in your mind is hideous, undesriable, and for the collector that doesn't matter so much...to me however it's the perfect example of what a 100 year old card SHOULD look like...and it's the reason I collect..

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

Thank you--I try to make things interesting. If I did not say it clearly I meant the dollar value of all card transactions is moving to graded and within that moving to high grade. Numbers of collectors--not sure.

Barry,

Obviously--I was including those.

Tom,

Excellent post. I think almost everyone here would put more value on the second--except me. I am trying to complete high grade sets 1887-1970--all sports and non sports. I love learning about the game but the other things don't mean much to me. If they do to others--great.

Frank,

1,000 Jim Crandells--wow. I agree--the only thing I doffer with you Frank is you go out of your way to criticise graded cards and graded card collectors. Just collect what you want and ignore the graded card/card alteration/hobby issues posts.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

Great--collect what makes you happy--I am happy for you. It would make me unhappy to have a card like that--but that doesn't mean that one way of collecting is better than the other.

Jim

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Posted By: T206Collector

...to four people in one post on one thread, then you should take a moment for quiet reflection.

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Posted By: Steve M.

Dave:

I agree.

Barry:

I agree.

Tom:

Very well put.

Frank:

I agree.

Jim:

I don't really know what to say.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I don't criticize all collectors of graded cards...

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Posted By: Dave

I think that was just another absurd comment from Jim. I can't recall a post where I remember you getting on anybody with a graded card because it was a graded card...

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I think card collectors in general spend way too much time ragging on what other people choose to collect. What difference does it make?

Why is it bad to collect 8s? I don't think it's bad to collect 8s - they're beautiful.



Why is it bad to collect low-grade? I don't think it is. Low-grade cards are beautiful, too.



There's room in this hobby for everybody, and frankly it's getting tiresome to read the same dumb argument over and over again. This hobby is very much symbiotic between the low and high-grade collector. The demand for one props up the demand for the other.

Jim, you don't pay any attention to prices realized on low-grade cards, so it's safe to say that you haven't seen the dramatic price increases that many buyers of those cards have seen in the last few years, or the immense volume of material that changes hands every single day. However, buyers of low-grade cards probably haven't tracked high-grade sales, either, and those prices have been equally healthy.

The condescending posts I occasionally read from high-grade collectors are no worse than the condescending posts I occasionally read from low-grade collectors, mid-grade collectors, raw collectors or graded collectors. A person's nature has nothing to do with what they collect, it has to do with their character, and whenever you get a group of people together in a public forum, you're bound to have some bad apples.

What bugs me is how frequently this discussion happens, and how quickly the comments get personal. Same discussion over and over, same people on both sides of the fence, same result every time. Don't you folks get weary of it after a while? It's CARDBOARD, for crying out loud. It's ALL remarkable, it's ALL got history, and it's ALL worth collecting if you're passionate about it. The issues that impact one segment of the hobby impact EVERY segment of the hobby, and I cannot, for the life of me, understand all the animosity. If I want tension, I'll go to the office.

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave--would you like to place a wager on that?

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Posted By: leon

There were probably about 3k more hits to the front page on the day of the Mastro thread (though I don't remember the exact numbers). There were probably 5k more on the days of the JP Cohen thread, otherwise the numbers have been about the same. What I tried to show is that the board has been pretty steady, in number of hits, except for the occasional pile up. Hope this helps.

edited spellin'

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Posted By: JK

"Noone said you don't play a role--probably a diminished role but a role nevertheless."

That statement about says it all. Jim, do you even read what you have written before posting or do you go out of your way to be insulting?

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Posted By: Dave

I haven't been anal enough to go back through each thread and try to find a sentence Frank wrote somewhere about a card being graded. I can say that it hasn't come to my attention of Frank being one of the constant slab bashers on this board.

By the way Jim....all of those PSA 8's and 9's you own...just how many are exactly T206's or the likes?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Very, very nicely put Al.


Daniel

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Posted By: JK

Dave,

While much that Jim says could use some editing before it is posted, I think his comments on Frank's tendency to bash slabs and the grading process any chance he gets is a fair one. I will admit its really gotten on my nerves lately.

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Posted By: Dave

And what is even more humorous is how easily you get upset if someone is "digging on you". You don't like low grade T206's like the one above...terrific that means more for the rest of us. You probably even get a good chuckle when someone posts on the recent pickup thread a low grade E94 Cobb....

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

You are wrong on Frank--its anti-graded cards all the time--don't see how you could miss it.

I have over 150 T206 psa 8s and 9s--have been pruning back a little on the commmons as prices for low pop psa 8 commons push through $6,000.

JK,

Sorry--that is not insulting to me. Why is saying a person plays a diminished role in something insulting.
I play a diminished role in collecting high grade T206s. But I would not be insulted if someone pointed this out.



Leon,

Whew--that was like pulling teeth--and no insults this time--is this a new leaf?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, please stop insulting Leon, it's really tiresome.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Deal--if you please stop insulting me. I have said nothing to you and you keep it up.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

How am I insulting you by asking you to simply stop bashing Leon? That is not an insult - it's a collective request.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

First of all,

I am not bashing Leon--he is getting in his digs and insults against me continually except for the last post--when all I am asking is for the post count on certain days. This is not new.

Secondly, you know what I am talking about--in recent days you have been disparaging/needling,attacking me and I have said nothing. I am politely asking you to stop.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

what so many intelligent men and women are doing checking out this board at 9:40 AM central? Are we a cadre, a coven, addicted (not joking), or truly hiding from the real world and its dreaded responsibilities?


Daniel

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Posted By: Dave

Why the request for views on those days? To prove how popular you are and how much you bring to this site?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, for a guy who offends and attacks anyone and everyone you come in contact with, you sure have thin skin. I'll apologize in advance for suggesting that you have thin skin. And I'll apologize in advance for even suggesting that you may need an apology for suggesting that you have thin skin.

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

My one question is if low grade cards are so unimportant why are they playing a bigger role in ALL of the major auctions. They used to be almost exclusively PSa 8-10 cards now they have more lower grade E and T cards? sounds to me like the backbone of the hobby is becoming rarity, whether that be in grade or for that particular card in any grade.

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Posted By: Dave

Obviously we are all just trying to learn as much as possible from Jim...one of the most important keynote players in the hobby today. You too should feel honored.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

Why the insults--if you want to discuss something I can do it on or off line but try to keep it civil.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I've read all morning:

"Why the insults--if you want to discuss something I can do it on or off line but try to keep it civil."

Are you serious? You just get totally lampooned for being thin skinned and then have the audacity to write this? Are you kidding?!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Never attack--only respond to attacks--happy to engage off-line with youy--but I have told you this before.

Try to stop insulting me please--you are better than that.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm offended by the notion that I am better than anything.

(I just made myself laugh writing that)

Edited to say: I actually laughed out loud.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

T206,

Don't get it--I may be thin-skinnned--and I am suggesting someone contact me off line rather than fill the boards with this drivel.

Its popular to criticise me--its interesting though that noone will engage on the facts offline--

See ya.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...to engage you in the facts off-line, and you told me that I was insulting you. Again.

Do all these purportedly unsolicited attacks make you feel bad -- are you really hurt by them? If so, the solution is to stop posting here. The solution is not to tell people to stop insulting you. That's just funny, given the insults that you continue to throw yourself. Seriously -- if you don't know why calling someone "diminishing" is an insult, then you need to touch up on your English skills. "Well, some of my best friends are dimishing. Heck, I'm diminishing." That doesn't mean it's not insulting. Duh.

Just.... duh!

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Posted By: Jason L

It-...seems to be, some...form of-...ridiculous conver...-sation, but-...I can't...make it out!

Can you....-dicipher?...losing patience and-...interest....quickly...
Spock!...Are you there?...Spock?!

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Posted By: barrysloate

We recently had train wreck Sunday. What is the board policy on having two train wreck days in the same week? Aren't we supposed to have a moratorium of some kind?

But this is entertaining. It's like the cat chasing its own tail. It's the same argument again and again, with no resolution and plenty of acrimony.

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Posted By: Dave

What is your big reasoning for wanting to "engage" in conversation offline? THe fun of it is in seeing you post petty remarks here for everyone to enjoy. I for one Jim will not be buying into "Jim's rhetoric card theory". Your the same as ever.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i just saw this...

guys this is turning into a ridiculous thread, can we please get back to cards?

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Posted By: jeffdrum

.......same as it ever was.........same as it ever was.............

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Hey, that's the Talking Heads! One of the seminal bands from the NYC punk scene in the 70s. They helped put CBGB on the map.

-Al