If the bottom fell out...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your recollection of Reagan causing a recession in the 1980 -83 time frame is absolutely laughable.
Correction.....Reagan inherited a disasterous ecomomic situation from the Jimmy Carter days.
When Reagan took office in Jan 1981 inflation was in double digits and the INTEREST RATES were
hovering around 14%. Do not tell me otherwise, I have a lot of respect for your intelligence.
I had my house built at that time and I cannot forget paying a 15% mortgage rate (as everyone
else was nationwide).

By the 2nd term of Reagan (1987) I re-financed my mortgage into a 7.5% rate. And, this was
possible because Reagan cut TAXES in 1983 and the dynamic of his tax cuts resulted in bolstering
the economy......which resulted in LOWER INFLATION and LOWER INTEREST rates.

Why the heck do you think he won 49 out of 50 states in the 1984 Presidential election ? ?
There has never been a "landslide" like that in all the history of US Presidential elections.

Just ask anyone who was in the BB card hobby (or any collectibles) during the mid-80's to 1990,
the hobby was......"ROCKING".

If you tell me otherwise, you are guilty of "revisionist" history, and I will have lost some respect for
you.....and I don't want to.

TED Z

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Posted By: Anonymous

Ted, There was a recession. Interest rates are adjusted by the Fed. to slow inflation or to encourage economic growth. The interest rates went so high to slow the economy down, and they were lowered to try to reinvigorate it during the recessionary period. There was a severe stock market decline during this period also.

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Posted By: peter chao

Ted,'

Actually your post made me feel a lot better. Since I consider you to be "the Man" when it comes to shrewd buying of prewar vintage, your revelation about the money you wasted on '80s and '90s stuff made me understand that I wasn't the only guy that wasted their money on the mass produced shiny stuff.

Now the only thing would make me feel better is if somebody would pay me to take this "shiny stuff" out of garage.

Peter

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Posted By: MikeU

Cards from the 80's are worth more to me personally than any pre-war card. I would hope a lot of board members feel the same. At least the ones that are around my age (34). I spend little to no money on 80's cards now, but that does not take away from them being the genesis of my collecting and loving the hobby. Those worthless cards are invaluable.

Back on topic, I also love vintage cards.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

What recession are you talking about ?

Is it the 1973 one when we had long gas lines ?

Or is it the Carter years 1977-81 when we had high inflation.....high interest rates.....and
long gas lines in 1979 ?

Tell me which one you are talking about ?

Yes, the Fed tries to control inflation; but, when the economy is disasterous as it was in the
above situations, inflation is out of control.

The only proven way to generate a "booming" economy, is to allow the people of this country
to keep more of their hard-earned money. And, you do that by reducing TAXES for everyone.
John Kennedy did this in 1962.....Ronald Reagan did this 3 times during his Presidency.....and
Geo. Bush has given us 3 TAX CUTS since he has been in office. And, every time the dynamic
of letting people spend.....invest.....or save more of their money has resulted in a prospering
economy.

Hey, this idea of cutting people's taxes is nothing new....it's at least 2400 years old. In 400 BC,
King Ptolemy V reduced the taxes of the people in his kingdom in Alexandria, Egypt. And, these
people were so overjoyed they erected a monument to honor him. How do we know this, the
Rosetta Stone tells us so.....on this monument was this famous stone Tablet.

If you don't understand this dynamic by now, then I can't help you.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

cards will always have value, but that is not the reason I collect. i collect because I like them. I do not look at my collection as $$$ spent in the least bit. I like to look at them and handle them and if the bottom fell out of the market, wouldn't bother me at all. It would be an opportunity to collect more interesting cards.

Ken

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Posted By: Anonymous

Ted, I can see that you are a master of selective memory who is not bothered by facts that are extraneous to your reductionist theory of economics. In my view reductionist theories are drawn from a well of self interest, thus their immense popularity. I can also see that further conversation on this subject would be fruitless and not really why I spend my time here, so, peace be with you, I am moving on to other conversations.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- I know I'm pretty old, but for the life of me I can't seem to remember King Ptolomy's tax cuts

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Posted By: Anonymous

Oh, Barry, that reminds me, I can't resist one more comment. Do you remember Caligula? He cut taxes upon becoming Emperor, became wildly popular with the people, quickly depleted the treasury, had to reverse field and tax everything to support his decadent self-indulgence, went crazy and was assassinated.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I collect because I love the hobby but there is no reason why baseball cards cannot have a place in a diversified portfolio. In every financial planning meeting I have ever had I discuss the cards and their value with my financial adsvisor. High grade vintage cards have been a great investment.

Bruce is right in that the market can get thin as you get higher in dollar value. As I try to acquire the cards I need to finish my psa 8 and better sets in many cases I know exactly who my competition is for the cared and how much I need to bid to get it. While the participants may differ by set, there are a limited number of collectors that play in each one.

Lastly, Ted Z, if you and I could talk politics we would get along famously--Reagan is my hero and I am a big believer in across the board tax cuts to stimulate growth.

Jim

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

WOW......there is common ground between us.

Well, you are more vocal than I.......so why don't you explain to these "TAX lovers" the
significance of governments letting people keep more of their hard earned money.

Better, yet....let them pay 50% (or more) of their income in TAXES....and us smarter guys
will only have to pay no more than 25% of our income.

I will never understand about 33% of the people of this country who are willing to give
almost 1/2 of their income to the government for its ineffective programs, "pork" barrel
projects, and wasted $$$$ for all these politician's whims (whether Democrat or Republican).

TED Z

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Amen Ted!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Nobody likes paying taxes- even I hate them.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

If you are going to call me out, at least have some facts to back your position. The recession that occurred is a fact and no amount of revisionism can change that. Perhaps I can remind you of the facts by quoting from a report by that bastion of left-wing democratic partisanship, the Federal Reserve Board. Per the Fed, the economy reached a peak in July 1981 and a low point in November 1982:

Table C
Business cycle peaks and troughs in monthly IP since 1972
-------------------------------------------------------
Peak Trough
-------------------------------------------------------
March 1979 (May 1979) July 1980
July 1981 November 1982
September 1990 (April 1989) March 1991
June 2000 December 2001
-------------------------------------------------------

http://www.federalreserve.gov/Releases/G17/Revisions/20021205/g17rev.txt>

The table I presented from the Fed also points out that the economy reached a peak in 1979 and another depth in 1980. So, in fact, my revisionist friend, your man Reagan benefited at the ballot box from a slump during the height of the 1980 election campaign, rode the recovery from that dip and crashed the economy all on his own starting 6 months into his term. He presided over a recession so sharp that it was considered the worst since the Great Depression.

Equally as important for our discussions, and totally bypassed by your hysterical screed and the subsequent debate over how you hijacked this thread, is the fact that a ton of cards poured into the Hobby from the late 1970s into the early 1980s. If you want to know why prices dropped dramatically on some cards around that time, look no further than supply meeting and in some cases outstripping demand. In late 1979 I was offered $500 for a near mint 1953 Mays. A year later, I saw dozens of these cards in just one dealer's case at a show here in LA. When the prices went up sharply, the news stories started and the cards poured out of the woodworks, especially the 1950s and 1960s stuff.

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Posted By: T206Collector

There has been a long-running debate (eons) about the best way to spur an economy -- either by raising taxes to increase government spending and decrease government borrowing (see Democrats); or reducing taxes to increase consumer spending and increase government borrowing (see Republicans).

Both sides try to point at different indicators to prove who was right about why whatever happened happened. But whether you buy into John Maynard Keynes, Adam Smith or Milton Friedman -- and in a strange way to tie this all back into the subject of this thread -- the only thing I learned as an economics major in the early 1990's (other than about 500 reasons why Reaganomics were disasterous to our country) is that in the long run we're all dead. I think baseball card collecting will go the way of the do-do bird, but it will be long after those of us populating this Board move on.

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Posted By: Dylan

Ofcourse its easy to like someone that issues massive tax cuts but Reagans policy paid no attention to the future and the consequences. Yes the economy recovered robustly. But despite his large tax cuts, spending grew unabated, resulting in a dramatic increase in federal budget deficits and the national debt. And to all those that love to give all the credit to Reagan for the economy and the Soviet Union collapse etc. there were other factors at play. Perhaps most importantly was Paul Volcker whose policies in the federal reserve faught the massive inflation(which were planned out and beginning to be enacted before Reagan ever took office), plus the decline in oil prices after the supply shock ended in the middle east. There's two sides to every story and yes we came out of the recession and that was good, but it also got the deficit spending ball rolling to new heights, and it has seemed that since it got rolling its continued to snowball. Its easy to cut taxes and continue to spend money... just let the next guy worry about it right? That was Regean's great plan. The trickle down effect was a good one too. Cut taxes for the very rich and it'll "trickle down" to the lower classes, YEAH RIGHT, we saw how that worked out! If you want to cut taxes fine, but dont make the next generation pay for it by deficit spending. Replublicans claim there all for a small federal government and tax cuts. Well i dont see it, all ive seen as of late is massive spending, and a federal government that becomes more powerful by the minute!

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Posted By: Jason L

I would be happy to come to your garage with a truck and haul off all your 1982 and 1983 Topps, and 1984 and 1985 Donruss sets for $5 each. even raw cards are fine!

Just send me an email!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st.....Where do you get off that I "hi-jacked" this Thread ?

In my initial post (1/10/07..11:59 AM) I simply presented the history of how collectibles' values have tracked
as a function of INTEREST RATES over the past 25-30 years.

You, then (1/10/07..7:55 PM) countered with some "anti-Reagan fiction" about some "recession" which he was
not responsible for in the 1981-83 timeframe; but, with his subsequent tax cuts turned the economy around.

I only responded to your comments....if anyone set this Thread off on a digression, it was you at 7:55 PM yesterday.

2nd....I was very active in this hobby in the late '70s and throughout the '80s and I am fully aware of BB card
collections coming out of the woodwork. I was the lucky enough to be the recepient of many such "walk-ins",
at shows from 1977 to 1987.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think I'm heading back to the Seinfeld thread. It's quieter over there.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dylan,

Thats left wing garbage.

Reagan tried hard to cut non-defense spending and the Democratic congress vblocked him again and again.

He also cut taxes across the board--not just for the wealthy--and by the way it worked great.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Left wing garbage. Is there such a thing as "left wing wisdom?" Just curious if it even exists.

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Posted By: Jason L

it was sighted briefly once, and it appeared just to the left of the car in the Zapruder film...hard to see though, as it was only visible for a fleeting second

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Posted By: Mike

Uhm....I forget, what set of cards were we discussing ?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...are the two biggest dividing lines in society, at least when it comes to casual conversation.

Since neither has anything to do with baseball cards, I think they should both be topics that are not permitted to be discussed here. They will inadvertantly spiral into horrid sh*itstorms. By and large, you can expect to see the same split along class lines. For example, it is not surprising that the PSA 8 collectors defend Reagan -- the white and the wealthy often do. But it is totally irrelevant to this Board.

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Posted By: Mike

Can I be black and wealthy?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...you can be black and wealthy. I hope that my post was not mis-construed to suggest otherwise. The converse is also obviously true -- you can be white and poor, too.

I am not tryign to start a race or class war -- far from it. I am just suggesting that this Board should try to stay away from such emotional topics that have nothing to do with baseballl cards. We have hard enough time as it is being civil about cards -- we need to show years of good behavior about cards before we should even think about entering politics, religion, race, class, etc.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

"He also cut taxes across the board--not just for the wealthy--and by the way it worked great."

Haha!!Thanks for the laugh this early in the morning. Whatever you are smoking, please, pass me some!
Talk about "garbage."

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: leon

I would prefer not to get into political talk on the board but this kind of thread begged it, unfortunately. I tend to let things go a little too long but I really do hate shutting threads down.....For me on topic. I hope the bottom doesn't fall out as I do have more than I should (money) in my cards. I don't buy for my personal collection as an investment but since I have taken funds from other places to put into it, it definitely classifies as one. One that has done much better than the stock market so far (knock on wood), I might add. My wife's first question is always "are you selling it". When I don't answer she knows the answer...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

My poor hispanic next door neighbor also likes Reagan.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Think or do a little research here buddy.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Edit:
he's just not worth it.
Let talk about cards!

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- if you are hoping to draw a nice crowd to our Jan 25 meeting, this may not be the best way to do it...just a thought.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...are harder to peg. They tend to be more religiously guided in their voting, and since they are Catholic, tend to vote more Republican.

It's all stereotyping. There are always exceptions. Loads of rich white people loved Bill Clinton. Politics take all kinds. But it is not surprising that we would have a large Republican presence in a vintage baseball card chatboard, which is predominantly afluent white folk. Hell, there are hardly any pre-war black baseball players -- I am devoted to T206, hopelessly, and there is nary a black player to be found.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I agree but I will not let a personal insult go unchallenged.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, I admire your moxie!

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Jim,

No personal insult intended. Just thought what you said was pretty funny, and called the assertion garbage. Didn't call you garbage. If I recall, you did the same thing in a similar post.

And I don't think we are the Knights of the Round Table either. Nobody is insulting your honor.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Jason L

Can we get that NYC meeting on pay-per-view?!

Jim, I kinda doubt your neighbor is poor, hispanic or not

yes, Leon, let's quickly retreat back to an on-topic topic, such as why did the T206 set include the minor leagues at all? It's such a big undertaking...how big would one of today's sets be if it covered the majors and minor leagues too?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Not true Paul--Bush won under 40 percent of the hispanic vote.

I agree that it is to be expected that the majority of board members would be conservative repubs--frankly I am shocked that there are as many liberals as there seems to be.

Leon might have to dop a poll on this.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"Not true Paul--Bush won under 40 percent of the hispanic vote."

I was not saying that a majority of hispanics vote Republican. I was saying that Republicans have better luck attracting hispanics with a religious agenda.

There are tons of other variables at play. I really dislike speaking in stereotypes.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

The biggest variable is that the Cuban-Americans in Florida vote heavily Republican because of the Repubs stance vs Castro and communism.

Mex-Amer vote heavily Dem which is why New Mexico shifting into Dem column and why Cali is safe for Dems.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

One of W's nephew's, George P., is part Mexican, I believe, and lives in Florida. They have made significant inroads with the Hispanic population in Florida in recent years.
Plus taking a kid in the middle of the night didn't help the Dems cause either!

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I always thought Reagan should have been immortalized in a star wars trading cards set....... He spent enough on it to at least be recongnized for his efforts.
What's interesting is that in Australia and Europe, for years people weren't even sure that Reagan was actually alive, we'd watch his speeches rambling mid sentence from one completely different idea and topic to another, look around, and wonder if the CIA hadn't found a way to keep a cadaver alive and feed it speech to befuddle a nation. I say this not to offend - though of course it will, but it was incredible coming to the USA and seeing the way America remembered his tenure. And the reporting of it world wide......really, he was considered a bit of a joke by nearly every mainstream media organization outside of the US - and the cold war ending seen much more as a result of an extraordinarily politically brave leader called.....Mikhail Gorbachyov.

Sorry ahead of time, but we watched the USA spend its future away under Reagan and recording astronomical budget deficits to that time unimaginable, and couldn't understand how this government could be called a conservative one.
At least Nancy understood stem cell research, however little JimC might


Daniel

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Posted By: peter chao

Jason,

Thanks for the offer of buying my '80s cards. I'd rather trade them for your prewar cards.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jason- how dare you try to break up a good fight under the pretense of talking about T206's

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Posted By: Jason L

with such a weak question like that...

I will step aside, and watch the carnage that will serve as my lunchtime reading

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Daniel,

Whew! Lucky you got back to the U.S. in time before being totally brainwashed by the mainstream media.

Tax cuts, strong economic growth, a buildup in defense and bringing down the evil empire. He was a legend.

Jim

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Posted By: Joann

Resolved: I will read every post Jason L writes. Always very smart and often very funny as well. hee

Joann

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Ketchup as a vegetable.

Yup, he was a legend!

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Posted By: Jason L

It's always great to have fans!
Of course, now there is tremendous pressure to write something funny and smart every time out, but now that I know that it matters, I will try to "bring it" every time I'm on the keyboard:)

...amd someday, I hope to have gained enough knowledge about something that I can actually contribute to the learning process here on the Board!

But you know what they say,...eh - I got nothin'

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Posted By: JK

Well, I hadnt really been following this thread, saw that it was nearing 100 posts and thought - "better read this baby - there must be a fight going on."

Hey, I got an idea, can we discuss Iraq now? That should be good for another 300 posts.

Im with who ever stated that politics and religion ought to be banned topics on this board. Nothing good ever comes of it. Frankly, some of you are beginning to sound like a broken record.