If this were the stockmarket..............

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Hmmm,

Not sure I agree with that.

Scott,

As I have explained elsewhere my plan ends with Network 54 and other serious ncollectors getting behind a code of conduct for the industry.

Your suggestyions are worthwhile too.

Jim

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Again you speak with much wisdom and sage advice. Calmer minds will prevail.

The hobby market will keep moving on, be it up or down, not based on these boards, but the ebb and flow of supply and demand for cards of all grades.

Scott

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Posted By: cmoking

Scott, I agree with you that it is only a minority of cards in high grade PSA/SGC holders that have been tampered with. However, that is certainly not the opinion of others on this board, including the moderator himself, who (correct me if I'm wrong) posted that he thought about half the high grade pre-war cards were altered somehow. Again, I don't agree with Leon's assessment, and I agree with Scott's....however I am also interested in trying to seek out more info. It is certainly possible that with more info I would change my opinion and agree with Leon. Getting more info is exactly what Jim is trying to do.

(edited to be more clear)

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Posted By: scott brockelman

While such a code of conduct sounds nice in concept there are inherent flaws to that or anyother plan.

Foremostly, the vast majority of cards have been encapsulated. Too implement any code of conduct now does nothing to undo any previous misconducts.

Secondly, how in the world could such a code be enforced. This is why we have the problem we do now, the person altering the cards is usually not the seller or even the reseller, they are often many times removed and impossible to assign guilt to. Plus, do you really think a dishonest person is going to honor the code, heck they would probably be the first in line to sign one, especially if they thought their work was that undetectable.

This all sounds so much like other remedies in other arenas of life that failed. Good intentions, but in reality the only people that got hurt were the honest ones, the crooks don't care. Kind of like gun control, a thief is still gonna be armed even though the law says he can't. A card doctor is still going to doctor cards, only perhaps to a lesser educated crowd, and if Ebay proves anything, there are still unknowledgable collectors with big bucks.

Thirdly, Who is going to be the baseball card grading Czar?

Scott

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Posted By: peter chao

Scott,

Leon is going to be the grading czar. We know he really doesn't have a job because it's got to be easy keeping board members focused on vintage cards. Laugh out loud.

Peter

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Posted By: scott brockelman

But I know of a board member who would fill the shoes perfectly.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I think this topic is important, but we are beating a dead horse at this point. I think we've taken it as far as it needs to go. I don't think I will learn anything new from subsequent posts.

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Scott, good point,

"Secondly, how in the world could such a code be enforced."

How can we enforce something when there is no way of detecting it? According to SGC,

"These are examples of procedures that, if done carefully and properly, are unfortunately undetectable."

Even if every major auction house come out and promises that they will not do it any longer, it will still happen. Only it will be all of the dealers and who buy the cards in their auctions that do it and get them upgraded and turn around and resell them.

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Posted By: shane

High grade/rare material will always have a market regardless of the economic situation of this world. The rich will always have disposable income for these types of treasures.
Jim-I agree with Barry on the value of T206's if the market ever dipped down to $400 per PSa 8. I will buy every one of those.

In closing, I think it is important not destroy a persons character/business by assuming alterations are being practiced by certain people. We should enjoy what we collect and enjoy the friendships that have brought us together through card collecting.

Shane

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

A stock market usually deals in publicly held negotiable instrucments. The tougher cards (high graded included) seem to be more "privately" held companies/stocks.

I like the irrational train of thought and the nervousness of the people with pop (1) PSA8 cards. It's absolutely hilarious to me. Someone pays $6000 for a pop (1) card only to see three more come available or worse yet, the crowning of a new king pop (1) PSA9 card.

I suppose a lot of people could be making a stink in an effort to scare the grading companies away from grading higher graded cards (or at least scrutinizing them better) and also to put the auction houses on notice that "altering cards aint cool" (because it's wrong) and because populating the population reports with more PSA8 cards will diminish the value of the existing PSA8 cards.

Maybe the next collecting niche will be to find OVERSIZED cards...

Personally, I could care less if the whole (excuse the pun) house of cards market fell flat on it's face. I would like that more than anything - get rid of the speculators and get the cards back into the hands of the people that enjoy these things for what they are.... where are Karl Marx and Frederick Ingalls when you need them?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

for me to say In Jim's defense, the brouhaha started not with his question but with Doug Allen's admission that Mastro engaged in card doctoring in an effort garner higher grades on cards it has submitted for slabbing as part of the auction process. That's not Jim's doing.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

This all might actually be a good thing...

More suspicion about cards being sold/auctioned = lower bids = I might be able to afford some more cards!



Steve

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Posted By: Richard Masson

"Doug Allen's admission that Mastro engaged in card doctoring in an effort garner higher grades"

He admitted to laying down flipped corners, erasing light pencil marks and removing the occasional surface wrinkle. The vast majority of collectors and dealers do it. Any dealer that comes on here and swears he doesn't do these things is lying. Period. Full Stop. Getting people to sign some oath of compliance will never change these practices.

Focus on trying to identify the real theives- the true doctors who trim, bleach, soak and stretch and rebuild corners. Doug's admission is not in any way newsworthy to anyone who has been paying attention over the last twenty years; he is being unfairly blasted for simply being honest.

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Posted By: dennis

well said richard!

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Richard,

Thanks for a level headed post, of which there are few of lately.

Scott

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Posted By: E, Daniel

you just called Barry Sloate a bald faced lier.
Any chance you'd like to think about that one again?

daniel

Oh, and the vast majority of collectors?
You've got to having a lend of yourself, no?

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Posted By: cmoking

Doug Allen stated that if SGC and PSA stated they felt removing wrinkles was altering that he would stop that practice. SGC has stated that. Will Doug stop doing it now?

Whether or not you as a collector (any of you) believe removing wrinkles is fine or bad, that's not the point. The point is that Doug said he'd stop if SGC/PSA disagreed with him. SGC has disagreed.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thank you for bringing some SANITY back to this Forum regarding all these chaotic Threads.

and......

JUDGE DRED

I'm with you......let the "out-of-sight" pricing levels in the BB card market collapse to
the pricing levels of the early 1980's.....when you buy an ExMt T206 common for $10
and a Cobb for $100....a Goudey Babe Ruth for $150....a 1952 T Mantle for $500.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: warshawlaw

"He admitted to laying down flipped corners, erasing light pencil marks and removing the occasional surface wrinkle"

aka...card doctoring...

And to quote my Mom: Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right. If everyone else was jumping off a building would you do that too?

And to quote my Dad: Political Science? What the hell are you gonna do with that?

And to quote Taqgert in Blazing Saddles: I am appalled.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Richard wouldn't call me a bald faced liar, we've been friends for too many years...balding, perhaps, but not completely bald. I do admit to erasing pencil marks from the backs of Old Judges and things like that before I submit them. But to repeat, I don't think anyone finds this to be an unethical practice. If it leaves an indentation then it accomplishes nothing anyway. And as I said in some thread somewhere- there are so many threads running simultaneously I don't know where I posted anymore- I used to try to take out creases 20 years ago, ended up making the cards look worse, and quickly gave up the practice. Most of the time I was ironing out the crease so the card would look better in my set, and if I resold it, I turned a $12 card into a $14 card. It doesn't justify my actions, and I apologize for it, but I was young and impetuous. Those days are long over.

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Posted By: John

"Small price to pay to bring integrity and honesty back into the hobby."


Congratulations Jim, you made the leap from the martyr role you generally play to that of the superhero role.

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Posted By: cmoking

Barry, you said you tried to take a crease out but failed. If you were successful, would you have continued doing it to this day? I know that's a tough philosophical question to ask because it is more an alternative universe type of thing...but curious what your answer is to that.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Barry,

I think you are a superb dealer and a class act in the hobby.

I think however you are misunderstanding Jeff and Jim, who believe pencil removal is comensurate with alteration.

I think it is unfair to say pencil removal is accepted but light wrinkle removal is alteration. Either the standard is submit cards as they are without anything done as some suggest or aggree with Mastro.

Charlie

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Posted By: barrysloate

King- somebody asked me that exact question and I answered it, but I can't even remember what thread it was in. There are like ten threads going on at the same time discussing the same topic. But to answer your question, no, I could not do that today. The simple reason is it is dishonest, and in a manner of speaking it is a form of stealing money from somebody. And my conscience wouldn't let me do that. I stop at pencil erasure, and that is it. I'm really not that obsessed with making money. I like it, but I prefer to work for it, not steal it.

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Posted By: cmoking

Thanks Barry. Sorry to ask the question again, I thought I had read all 2000 posts already.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I thee wed.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Barry,

Is Mastronet stealing? It sounds like you liken wrinkle removal to stealing?

Charlie

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Posted By: barrysloate

Let me put it this way. For every dollar added to the final price of a card by artificially enhancing it, that is a dollar stolen. If a VG card is worth $50, and by ironing out a crease you are able to sell it for $100, then in my book you just stole $50.

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Posted By: Dylan

I hadnt the time to read through all of the posts. However I think this all lends a grand oppurtunity to the auction houses to change and run as transparent as an operation as possible. Also to the grading companies- obviously if a vintage card's worth equals thousands of dollars its ok to charge more to spend more time authenticating it. Cards graded to a higher service could have an asterisk on the slab. I would spend more on it knowing that its been through rigourous testing.. and maybe that would give some sort of incentive for the high grade material out there right now to get re holdered and we could all feel better about it!

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Posted By: Chris Counts

My unslabbed, beat-up, pin-holed, creased, off-centered, tape-stained and dog-earred collection of cards is looking better every day! Ah, the simple life of a small-time card collector ...

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Posted By: joe brennan

I have read about all this over and over and over again. I have refused to respond because actually I didn't have anything to say till now.
I lurked for about 3 months last year before I joined and started collecting T206's Low grade, mid grade, what I could afford and what I liked.
I found this board to be informative, interesting and enjoyed members posting pictures of cards I will never own but loved the history and the images.
Frankly in the last few months I find the board to be boring, self serving, pompous and frankly more than childish of late. How else can you explain the NY Dinner thread, but childish or idiotic may be more appropriate.
Now, in the last week we have had 15 threads about events that everyone in this hobby confessed to knowing about. None of this is news to anyone and quite frankly is the same **** over and over again with a slight twist.
You can say, I don't have to read it and you are quite right. I don't have to be here and you are right again. What I'll ask is what happen to discussing cards, the history of the card and the pics and congrads of new cards. I think the latest discussion out numbers those threads 4 to one.
The pissing matches and pompous attitudes get old and boring fast. I know no one gives a **** if I stay or go, but I would like to go back to a time when the fun threads outway the witch hunts, name callings and libel suits are 1 to 15 ratio again.
Only one more thing, Jim Crandall when you get something in your head, you become obsessive to an extreem that I have rarely seen before.

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You are absolutely correct....how much more can this "dead horse" be beaten down ? A growing
number of us have had enough of this "horse-crap".

Joe, your comments about the lack of more meaningful subjects regarding BB cards and just BB
in general this past month is very true. I posted another one of my T206 Surveys which I felt
would be quite informative on Sovereign backs....and it "died" and vanished into never-neverland.
And, why was this, when my previous such Surveys on T206's or E90-1's received over 100 responses ?
And, I noticed other similar Threads with worthwhile information "dying on the vine" ?

And yet, why is this so....
because all the "freakin" ENERGY and OXYGEN in this Forum has been exhausted by this "freakin"
obsession by one member. Which when all the dust finally settles will have proven nothing.
However, it creates the perception in some minds that the "bad guys" in the hobby are being
flushed out.....BULL-CRAP !

LEON....a growing number of us want to return some normalcy back to this Forum......PLEASE.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Amen Ted!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

One member--ha.

Ted your head is so deep in the sand it may take you months to find it.

I love how you have taken your personal mission against
my efforts to try to clean up the hobby and now say its everyone against me.

Kind of sad.

If people cared about your posts they would respond. I hope they do--you certainly have something to add.

Be well.

Jim

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

The ones complaining that this thing is being beaten to death are equally guilty of beating THAT thing to death.