Deleted auction thread

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

What I wrote in the chat room was this:

"no one is going to expose this"

That is a quote Charlie; I have the full text saved from the chat board.
Re-read my edited version above. I am NOT a card dealer and this is NOT my life! I am a collector and am confident in what I buy to detect what is altered or trimmed or air brushed or whatever. I do not need to worry about what you do as I can determine for myself what I wish to buy with confidence in my own eyes and own experience in now 40 years of card collecting. That’s right! I have cards I collected since I was 8 years old and have studied them ever since. For your convoluted memory Charlie, I am a GM for the largest gym chain in the US. NOBODY but you would try to say I stated I owned one! Who would want to? If I had the kind of money it took to do that right I would own
"BrinaontheRock" or maybe "WeirdstintellectsCharliescratcheshisheadover"
and compete with you "dealers" and join in on the bull’s eye slams that are part of being a dealer in cards. I DID own part of a game store in Saratoga California
A Jewelry store in Log Gatos California and part owner of a coin shop in San Jose California. I traded all that for a common job so I could spend more time with my family-didn't you say that was your goal young Charlie??? So what's so weird about that if inevitably we share the same life's intention Charlie? I am not sure how you can admit and you have that you learned a lesson about having a big mouth on the chat board yet are not willing to except the consequences that go along with having done so! Then you go and do it again!!! Now who's weird Charlie? I take my lumps for whatever I do or say and you should too! You also have failed to address the question on the big picture- Why would I want to do anything that harms you??? Especially when I gave you stuff to put in YOUR auction? Did you think that through before ejecting me from the auction and calling me? Charlie, I am way more involved in COINS and paintings then I am or would be in cards even if I were a dealer. I have some nice cards but no longer have the resource allocation to buy up expensive cards. I am not a "player" in the card market even as a collector! Your other assertions are inane. I could make money today by offering it to you to prove your assertions about other things I have been involved in. You would find flaw in your conclusions there as well. I guy who declares his trustworthiness and honesty should be able to discern when others have no need to lie as well. It appears you have not been masterful at this if you keep having to ask people about the integrity of others as you state often. Why don't you evaluate people for yourself and make up your own mind. Do you really think the people you ask about other people are any better than those you inquire about? I am sure you have my address,please send my blankets back.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Brian,

I know you won't believe this but I was calling you prior to this mess regarding the blankets. I can still add them to the auction, provided you have not altered them in anyway. Joke of course.

But seriously I will put them in the auction or mail them back Monday am.

Charlie

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

you are correct by the way,I don't believe you because we convered every possible detail of the blankets in e-mails and as soon as I referred to you as "Anthony", teasing you about one of your secretive e-bay handles you immediately called several times! We had nothing concerning the blankets to talk about at this point and you cannot hood wink people with being polite. "Niceness" is so endearing Charlie but it does not cover over falsehood. As I told you several times before the past several months;"wisdom is the rule of the day" not manners. And posting and writing e-mails and calling in Friday nights??? Sabbath issue!



after draging me into your business problems,degrading my personallity and charator publically,pretending to be nice though your not,cusing your head off and threatening me waking up two of my children and concerning my wife after I explicitly told you I was not going to use the phone a day prior then making ellusions of law suits that have forced me to file a police report in case there is subsequent contact from you and yours--pass.. just send them back-thanks and hopefully over!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, can you respond to Mark's question?

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Posted By: jay behrens

and you haven't satifactorily explained the change in the crease on the Young. The crease may still be there, but it's not as pronounced as before. I don't buy the "It's the scanner" plea. There is a noticble ridge that is no longer there.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ditto to Jay's question. I think bidders are more concerned about these two questions than an FBI agent who should be searching for UBL instead of getting involved in a baseball card drama.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I think the anonymous email was sent from an IP address in northeast Pakistan.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Here's Charlie's response to me about the e92 Young card:

As far as the crease, the only thing that I did to that card was crack it out of the holder and put it in a screwdown overnight.

Why do that? The only reason I can think of is to try and press out the ridge before submitting it.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

And the response to Mark's question??????

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Posted By: jay behrens

he didn't answer that one.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

That was unfair to paraphrase my email. The crease on the card is still there and still breaks the paint and is not flush with the card. Because I did not press it or alter it in any way. And I also did disclose this crease as I do with any crease present on a card that I can see.

Jeff & Mark,

There are no altered cards in my auction.

There are cards that have been upgraded by cracking them out and resubmitting them.

As I stated before, when I was a kid I would put my best cards between books in order to make the corners pointy.

I still do this. I put the card in a glass block screw-down before submitting them.

If you or anyone else considers this alteration, I respect your opinion but I disagree with it.

If you would like to retract any of your bids on any card in the auction, I will be happy to do so.


Charlie

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Charlie,

I think I have said enough on this matter and I will bow out now. I am not on trial. I will however address any questions via email or phone at anytime.

Regards

Charlie

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Posted By: jay behrens

I did not paraphrase statement. I posted only the relavent part pertaining to the Young card. If I was paraphrasing, I would have left out the last word, overnight. It would have made your statement look much more damning, but I made sure to leave it in, just for the reason.

You say that you don't press cards, but by putting them in a screwdown, you are in effect pressing them. Why else do it. Claiming a lifelong habit is nice, but there is an alterior motive for it. Whether you use a screwdown holder, spoon or some other implement, you are still pressing the card to improve it's appearance.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

as you threaten that way in essence you will be on trial via the counter depositions! And if anyone does actually call you make sure to give them your cell phone number only so you can go outside and curse and threaten them and close the door behind you so your wife and daughters don't hear the real Charlie...you know, the one who prides himself with being nice and polite ect.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, I think all that Mark (and I) are asking is: has anything been done to the cards other than cracking them out and pressing them in a screwdown? Has any effort been made to remove marks? Anything else? That's all. And this is hardly a trial. Trust me, it would hurt a lot more than this. As for answering these simple - very simple - questions, don't you think you are obligated considering you are running an auction presently?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jeff,

I thought I was done answering these type of questions on this board but because you are a bidder I will answer the question again. No! Nothing else was done. And please feel free to contact me anytime about any card via phone or email. My father is an attorney so I am used to being question but is a public place.

Regards

Charlie

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

"I am used to being question but is a public place"

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jeff, all you have to do is look at the Young scans and see that he also removed the marks that were on Young's arm/shoulder area. Check this other card out. Ink has been removed, although not well

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220028704625

http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5098

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, Jay's example is pretty powerful and I think the following questions merit a response. 1. Is that Mathewson your card or a consignor's? 2. Did you remove the ink?

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Posted By: Brian

Looks like some green accidentally came off too...

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Posted By: DJ

I'm fascinated with this thread...brought to you by Jerry Springer.

I would like to know Charlie's percentage of cards that fail to increase in grade when he tries to get an increased digit.

Very interesting thread though...

DJ

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Posted By: BcDaniels

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!

Dealers simply resubmit it several times and/or send it to the "soft" competition
and either sell it in their holder or try to cross grade it back to your preferred companies holders using emotional ply of showing them what the competition feels it grades by sitting in front of the grading table discussing it for a while with graders you become familiar with based on your continuous business. This is done all the time and you can see it if you observe the tables for submittals. And why do you think so many auctions have all three grading companies’ slabs in their auctions??? You have to play mix and match properly to make money on plastic and grade numbers!

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Posted By: leon

Guys- I really let almost anything go if you put your name by it...to a certain point. Here are the 2 cards of Matty being referred to. I think ya'll need to find a different witch to hunt. I have NOT SEEN ONE ISSUE against Charlie that has been substantiated. This bump of 1 grade is really weak. Everyone has tried their best to hurt his character. NOT ONE person has shown anything substantial imho. I will not let this continue much longer as it's detrimental to the board and himself. It's not right....I can only take so much of this....Ya'll either come up with something better or let it go. I don't want to hear about what someone heard 3 years ago either. Anymore negative posts in this thread might be eliminated. It's just not right. He has been tried (through auction links etc) on several issues and has been exonerated on each one...again, in my opinion. I don't care if you don't believe what he says you better show something concrete or SHUT THE HELL UP. ....kind regards

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Posted By: jay behrens

Leon, are you really that stupid? Yes, I am wondering if you are stupid. The question about the Matty card is not about the grade or the front of the card. It is about what was done to the BACK of the card. Are you denying that anything was done to this card? If so, please explain to us how there was nothing done to this card.

Charlie claims to not doctor cards, but it's become obvious that he not only buy cards to resubmit, but to also clean and press. It may be fine in your book to do these things, but it's not in others and he should be exposed for what he does so people can make an education decision about the person they are about to deal with.

Also, if you shut this thread down, it will provide more ammuntion for those that think you are already cowtowing to big dealers and collectors, even without banner ads.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: DJ

For the record, I meant no disrespect in any way toward Charlie in my asking. It was a legit question.

Second, Wow. Young Jay is going to the principal's office.



DJ

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Posted By: Colt McClelland

Charlie is a great guy and an honest dealer. In fact, he is more open and honest than most dealers in that he is openly disclosing his opinion as to what he thinks is ok to do to cards before submitting them for grading. Not many dealers are this open and honest about this type of thing. If you disagree with him, then that's fine. But don't attack him personally or try to challenge his integrity. If anything, he should be receiving praise from the board for his honesty, professionalism and open attitude in the face of this unwarranted attack.

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Posted By: leon

I would have thought that with your nuclear engineering degree (or whatever it is) you could have figured out what I was talking about...sort of big scans I posted. I should have been talking about the back though ...I thought ya'll were talking about a green smudge on the front...and it's not much different. Charlie already said he has used gum erasers. I use Mars Plastic Erasers myself. I am indifferent as to the enhancement of a grade. I might have liked it before the erasing better but it's close to the same grade regardless...imo. Here are those scans....



edited grammar..

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Posted By: paulstratton

I may be mistaken but didn't Charlie already say he erases marks and removes stains? Something along the lines of "if a bird sh**s on a 57 tbird..." The only problem I would have is in his description he says it is a scuff mark and not an erasure mark.

He also said he plays the grading game and sends different cards to different companies.

I'm not defending Charlie, hell I don't even know him, but he and his business seem to be getting massacred over this. I'm all for full disclosure but he didn't even grade the damn cards.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I think Jay's post was a fair one, the statement was made in response to a previous question that the cards in question had simply been cracked and resubmitted, and Jay posted an example where certainly the scan suggests that ink may have been removed. To me it is a legitimate question and there may well be a legitimate answer. EDITED TO ADD People are getting confused in my opinion between Charlie's general statement about his philosophy and his specific answer to Jeff Lichtman's question about the particular cards in this auction, and I think Jay was simply asking a follow up to that.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

can't Charlie cough up the $9.99 to buy an architectural designers eraser!
professional models may cost as much as $14.99 but leave far less evidence of abrassion on the surface of the card! There is also a product you can use that dulls the effect of the whiter appearance oof the area after the eraser friction removes the oxydation! Opps! Why am I posting this! I don't know anything about this kind of thing! maybe someone will hire me to teach them how to do this correctly with limited findings. Oh! the spray is about $16 per can as well.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Colt, he's open to a point. Every time he's been exposed on the board here, when the heat really gets turned up, he goes quiet. This does nothing to help his reputation with those that don't know him.

What baseless accusation have been made against him? The Young and Matty card have obviously been clean up and the Young pressed. Some think it's ok, such as Leon and others, but there are other people that do not feel that this ok. It thought part of what this board is about is helping people make educated decisions about who to buy from. If Charlie feels that cleaning up cards is ok, then he shouldn't have a problem with people asking what he's done to his cards.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Steve M.

"Outstanding eye appeal for the given grade. A VG-EX front with a slight scuff (caused by ink removal with a ink eraser) the reverse accounts for the accurate grade of 2.5."

I believe the auctioneer has adequately disclosed the issue with the reverse. With that said I don't think this card should have received a numerical grade.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Can we turn this into a "what counts as altering" thread? We haven't rehashed that in a few weeks now.

I don't think erasing pencil marks (or any mark for that matter)with an eraser should qualify as "altering" a card. Now, if you were to accidentally erase something and then try to recolor it back in then you've crossed to the dark side and should be publicly whipped.

I don't subscribe to "freeing" a card from a grading holder in an effort to get a higher grade. On the other hand, who cares who does it? If you get a better grade then good for you. If you get a lower grade then you better get ready to pony up for the next round when it's submitted again. You can't blame people for trying. I'm not in the business of trying to profit from this hobby so I just don't care.

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Posted By: joe

Charlie admits he erases ink and pencil marks. We all can see he did that on the back of the card. Maybe my eyes are not as good as others but the front looks the same to me. I don't flip cards, so maybe it's time to bid on Charlie's auctions, as some on the board probably won't be bidding.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I have to agree with Jay (not his tone - Leon's suffered enough from this forum the past few days, give the guy a break). He's right. While some people are attacking Charlie, neither Jay nor I nor Mark are. We just want to know what the deal is with the cards. Look, I for one appreciate that this sort of stuff, i.e., pressing, altering, etc. goes on in any place on the net where vintage cards are sold. It happens on ebay every day. But Charlie is a board member and we just want to know what the deal is - and I think we deserve to know prior to bidding on his auctions. If he does not want to tell us, fine, he doesn't have to and he lives with the consequences. But it's just hard to understand when he says that no cards in his auction have been altered and then that Matty pops up. What is with that? Charlie, here's some advice: just tell the truth. Plenty of people will still buy the cards that have been touched up. But being evasive is not helping. I suspect half the people that bash you out here have probably done it themselves. Just tell the truth and let the chips fall. But getting these answers out of you has been something akin to root canal, no? And this debate is getting very tiresome. If you guys don't stop it I'm going back on Fox next week solely to inspire another viciously long thread about the direction our country is going in....

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Posted By: Cobby33

I think part of the "blame" has to go to the grading companies for allowing re-submittals (if they allow them, we're all stuck with the consequences, good or bad) AND for being inconsistent with their own grading standards (not to mention not having any universal standards).

As I had mentioned before, most people believe an "AUT" or "A" grade to mean that the card isn't fake, but it's been altered somehow. I recently purchased a T206 in a GAI holder with an "A" grade, becuase the corners were missing (probably came from an album). I re-submitted it to SGC (because the GAI holder was stained and because I prefer SGC), telling them I was merely looking for at least and "AUT" from them, which I received. The card was otherwise not altered - yet - I see plenty of beaters from PSA, et al., with "1" grades...I also see clearly altered cards with number designations. Mine wasn't altered, and got lumped with the same designation as trimmed and otherwise purposely-altered cards.

Inconsistent and certainly unfair.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I am being asked to defend myself again, so for the sake of my consignors I will.

I did remove the ink with an eraser.

I do not think removing ink is alteration.

I do not think removing ink is cleaning a card.

I was asked had I done anything else to any cards in the auciton and I said no. When I was asked the question I was not thinking about auction lot number 96 but if I had I would have still not mentioned it.

Erasing pen is not cleaning or doctoring as it has been described by others.

It is a $200 in a 2.5 and it looks worse than when it did have writing on it. So it was not in my mind that it needed to be disclosed. Erasing ink or pencil so common in the hobby that it is a joke that I am being slammed for it.

This hobby is full of doctors and trimmers etc and none of it is disclosed. Try asking any auction house to disclose anything done to each and every card. I have offered a level of transperency that no other auction house has.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

erasing and flattening out a corner is probably not "restoration"
Besides,if the guys who grade this stuff cant see erasing then good for Charlie because those professional graders should be able to detect this stuff if they are going to downgrade or reject the card based on it. This has turned into what is considered to us improper or not in fiddling with a card.
air brushing for example would probably be considered restoring by the card community and the correct equipment will cost you $3186.45*



Jay,send me my eraser back!

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Posted By: Anonymous

Jeff,

Erasing is not altering. That is the problem. You are parsing the language. I was asked if any card was altered in my auction the answer then was no and it is no now.

Erasing is not altering.

Erasing is not altering.

Erasing is not altering.

I never lied about. You are wrong to suggest anything else. If you do not want to bid in my auction because I erased ink fine, but not because I did not disclose it.

The question was alteration.

It simply is disingenious to confuse the to make me accountable for both.

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Posted By: Charlie

Who are those people?

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Posted By: jay behrens

saying erasing isn't cleaning is liek saying putting a card ina screwdown holder isn't pressing a card. Just becuase ink or pencil lead isn't dirt doesn't mean you didn't clean up the card. Remocing anyhting distracting from the card is cleaning. Ink, pencil, dirt, stains, whatever it may be. Then again, i'm sure, like you, others will justify remocal/cleaning of pencil and ink as not cleaning. If it isn't cleaning up a card to make it look better, then what is it?

Jay



I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I think the misunderstanding here is that Jeff asked you a much more specific question, not whether, using your definition, you had "altered" any cards. He asked whether you had done anything OTHER ThAN PUT THE CARDS IN THE SCREWDOWN, to which you answered, No, nothing else was done.

So I think it was a matter of miscommunication.

EDITED TO ADD Here is Jeff's exact question: "Charlie, I think all that Mark (and I) are asking is: has anything been done to the cards other than cracking them out and pressing them in a screwdown? Has any effort been made to remove marks? Anything else? That's all."

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Posted By: Charlie

It is erasing.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Excuse me for my ignorance but do PSA and SGC grade cards that they believe have had ink erased? Do they believe that this is not an alteration as Charlie does?

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Posted By: jay behrens

sounds more like symantics to me.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Charlie

Peter,

I agree. The last 24 hours has been pretty stressful and if I misintrepeted the quesiton I apologize. But why I goto the trouble to go through this whole inquest and try get away with the matty which will go for less than what I paid for it.

There was never an attempt to deceive anyone with that card.

There is nothing subtle about 1/3 of card missing paper and have writing surrounding it.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, Peter is correct. I simply asked if you had done anything to the cards other than pressing and you said no. After evidence of the Matty alt--woops, erasing, came up you then copped to that. So let me be clear:

Erasing is something more than nothing.

Erasing is something more than nothing.

Erasing is something more than nothing.

I'll say it one more time with feeling: Erasing is something more than nothing.

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Posted By: JK

Charlie has repeatedly stated that he will attempt to remove pencil and ink from cards. I for one think there is nothing wrong with that. I also think that it only adds to charlie's credibility that he has never hid where he draws the line. His position was also well fleshed out before the scans of the matty were posted by jay.

Jay - you appear to be on a witch hunt here. There is absolutley nothing nefarious about that matty. Pencil and or ink has been obviously removed from the back. The real problem (as alluded to by leon) is that GAI deemed the card to be worthy of a 2.5 - to me, its no better than a 10 or 20 (in fact, I bet in its current condition, if sent back to sgc, it would get a 10). Again, my opinion, this is more of a problem with gai than anything charlie did. Obviously charlie knows that gai is more lenient with regard to back damage - that is nothing new, I know that and I suspect most people here know that. You have failed to show me anything that charlie has altered (absent pencil/pen removal - which again, I dont feel is an alteration).

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

Charlie

human punching bags from the Octagon on Iwo Jima where they slammed each other on a chat board during the Sabbath last night while trying to buy a gym sized eraser!

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Posted By: Charlie

I feel like I am in the ring with Matt Hughes or Randy Coutour.