Oldest Baseball Card

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

im back guys i sended my email address so i could get the t206 card

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

i just have 1 more question what is the exact year date of Hal Lewis's Card you know the Henry Chadwick one thats my last question for now THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCh

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

Brian did you get my address???

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Posted By: David McDonald

Young Sean,
I apologize to you for my inhospitable crack at the start of this thread. We are all just a bunch of grown-up kids ourselves here at the Net54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum and we have in common with you a passion for baseball and old cardboard. Welcome aboard.

David McDonald
(11 y.o. in 1961)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hi all- I've been off the board for a few weeks. As Corey said, the Jordan and Co. cards have nothing at all to do with baseball. They are a set of cricket cards only; the issue is clouded only because Harry Wright is one of the four pictured and he played both baseball and cricket. The baseball game scheduled for the day the cards were to be distributed was rained out and never played, so there is no way to determine if the other three cricket players pictured would have participated. You can argue that these card/tickets were the first of their kind distributed in America, but in no way can they be called baseball cards. I also agree with Corey that the Jim Creighton is arguably the first baseball card, but because all the other Peck and Snyders were issued between 1868-70, his date of 1863 seems too early. I doubt there was a five year gap between the first and second issue. Finally. Hal's Resolutes card, a CdV, was probably issued around 1864, and there are earlier CdV's known, such as the 1861 Atlantics. I still think the definition of what a baseball card is and which is the first depends upon who owns it. Each owner seems to feel that his is the first, and not the other guy's.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Sean,
I have the address and will send the card out the first of next week. Welcome to the wonderful world of Vintage cards. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

so does this mean Hal's Lewis Card Was Made in The year 1864???

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Posted By: barrysloate

Virtually no CdV can be dated with certainty save something like the 69 Reds. The date 1864 is approximate, but I feel certain the 1861 Atlantics is at least somewhat earlier.

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

thank you so just to make sure Hal's Card he was talking about was an 1864 baseball card/CDV

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

is there a book that talks about Hal's Lewis's Card i know there a book for the 1860/1861 card and i know theres a book for the peck and snyder card but is there a book for Hal's Card???

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

There is a book titled "Baseball Cartes, The First Baseball Cards". It was written by Mark Rucker and published in 1988. It is the most complete compilation of baseball CDVs known. It includes the c. 1864 Resolutes/Philadelphia, as well as five of the seven known Peck & Synders (including the Creighton). It does not picture the 1860/1861 Atlantics because that carte was discovered after the book came out.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Atlantics is pictured in a back issue of VCBC with an accompanying article.

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

thanks guys for the help im gonna get the Smithsonial Baseball Book at my library so i can read it before my little league playoff game

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Posted By: davidcycleback

CDVs can be dated to a time period due to the style, but rarely to a specific year without specific information. For example, a CDV with square corners almost always dates before 1870. while a CDV with rounded corners dates to later. Interestingly, 1860s CDVs are easy to date due to the distinct mount style, while later ones can be more difficult.

During the Civil War era, tax stamps were sometimes put on CDVs. These can date a CDV to a specific year just like with a cigarette pack.

There was a case where a collector had a CDV-style card that he felt was the first baseball card. I thought it indeed could be, the problem being it was impossible (as far as I saw) to date it to a specific year. The question wasn't so much if it was a baseball card, but what year it was made.

In the earliest years of cards, there are no clear answers. If you're sure of the year, you aren't sure if it's a real baseball card. If you're sure it's a real card, you can't be sure of its exact age. The Peck & Snyders are the first baseball cards I know of that are clearly baseball cards. I have seen few if any early CDVs or other items that are clearly baseball cards.

The topic of the origins of anything is confusing for a 51 year old, much less an 11 year old. Starting with this topic is like skipping algebra and starting with calculus II.

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

i learned alot from you guys thank you so much guys

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

does anybody have anymore to say or talk about in this discussion because i really like this discussion and i want it to last

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Sean, if someone asks, you can say the Peck & Snyder are the first known baseball cards. There are items that are older, but it is debatable whether or not they are actually baseball cards.

With the popularity of PSA graded tickets, the Hoboken Match being classified as a game pass instead of a baseball card may not lower it's financial value.

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

yea the value of the 1863 Jordan & Co. Hoboken Harry Wright Card Is 85,000 DOLLARS!!!



but isnt the 1860/61 Brooklyn Atlantics card isnt that a card

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

because i sure hope it is








P.S. does anybody know if somebody has the 1860/1861 Brooklyn Atlantics CDV Card

and how many were made????

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Posted By: Joann

Sean,

Even if this discussion doesn't go on, go ahead and bump around a few of the other threads. Many will probably have discussions that interest you, and will help you learn T206's too. I understand you have one on the way.

Also, many threads (esp Recent Pickups) have scans of many wonderful cards so you can start seeing what you like.

Good luck to you.

Joann

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I must apologize to Sean and All for my earlier overly harsh and obviously wrong assertion regarding Sean's age..............in reading this endless post there can be absolutely no doubt on the topic.

Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

The 1861 Atlantics CdV was discovered by Mark Rucker in the late 1990's, and I purchased it from him. I later traded it to one of the contributors to this thread. He can step forward if he chooses. To date the card is unique. It pictures both Pete O'Brien as a player, as well as Al Reach. The appearance of both helped us date it to 1860-61.

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

do you know who you gave it too

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

oh yea i came back from my little league playoff game and we got slaughtered 14-1 so that means were out this by far means my worst season ever oh yea before my game i picked up Smithsonian Baseball and its great i found the 1860 CDV Brooklyn Atlantics Card i recommend this book

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

hey guys i need more information about the 1860/61 Atlantics CDV Card please give me more info as much as you know about this CDV thank you

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Posted By: Anonymous

No votes for the 1871 Warren cabinets? First "set" of professional, major league players.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Sean,

I complement your insatiable curiosity. To answer your question about the 1860/61 Brooklyn Atlantics CDV, here are some tidbits. The carte is the earliest known baseball CDV. There is one known copy. In 1860/61, the Atlantics were one of the two top teams in the country, the other being the Brooklyn Excelsiors (led by James Creighton). The Atlantics were the dynasty team of the 1860's, being either the top or one of the top teams throughout the decade. There are three known images of Atlantics from the 1860s - the carte of 1860/61 team, a mammoth plate of the 1865 team (an alternative version from the same photographer also exists with the photo being CDV size), and the Peck and Synder trade card of the 1868 team. The 1860/61 CDV, the 1865 mammoth plate and the 1868 Peck and Synder are illustrated in the book "Smithsonian Baseball".

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

thanks again that helped me alot, you sure know a lot about vintage baseball cards im glad your here in this forum and whats that 1871 Warren Cabnites Card or something like that posted by Anonymous

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Posted By: Anonymous

They are a set of 12 single player cabinets picturing the 1871 Boston Red Stockings. They were the dominant professional team before the National League was founded in 1876. Several of the players came to the Boston team from the 1869 Cincinnati team including George and Harry Wright and Cal McVey.

As discussed on this thread, there were team pictures and some individual photos made prior to this, but I think this is the first real "set" of cards, in the way we think of them today.

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

okay thanks for the information I have 1 more last question for now



IS A Daguerreotype consider a baseball card????

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Posted By: leon

A Daguerreotype is a photo and not considered a baseball card....

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

yea i found out in the Smithsonian Book it says it was a photograph covered in copper or something like that thanks for tellingg me anyway

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

sorry i just thought of another question herer it is



WHAT WOULD BE THE HIGHEST VALUE
(A) BOOK

(B) LETTER

(C) SCORECARD

(D) BALL

(E) MUSIC SHEET

(F) PHOTOGRAPH

OR (G) BASEBALL CARD


i think it would be either (G) or (D) whats your

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

sooo what your answer guys its kind of obvious a baseball card would easily win but thats my opinion whats your opinion

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

hey Brian got my Zip Code And My Last Name AND NO DONT SEND IT TO MY PARENTS SEND IT TO ME

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A really good game used baseball bat or jersey would sell for more than the cards discussed in this thread.

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

what do you think is more rarer guys a photograph or a baseball card

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Posted By: G.H. Counter

This isn't funny anymore
Enough already!

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Posted By: leon

I am taking steps to get a handle on this.....One deleted thread, a deleted post or two....I hate to do it... but I have to agree with you...and to not heed my personal and public appeals is not happening....Not on this board....best regards

edited to add that I have deleted several posts in this thread....it was far more redundant......

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

hey guys guess what i found i found another 1860 card its a Brooklyn Excelsiors Team Card here it is


http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=137589&imageID=56553&word=1860&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&lWord=137159&lField=11&sScope=Source&sLevel=&sLabel=The%2520A%252EG%252E%2520Spalding%2520Baseb all%2520Collection&backParam=&snum=&total=3&num=0&imgs=12&pNum=0&pos=1

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

doesnt anybody want to see this baseball card i found its all the way from 1860 so that means the 2 Brooklyn Team CArds are the oldest baseball cards

1860 Brooklyn Excelsiors Team Card

1860 Brooklyn Atlantics Team Card

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Sean, for something to be a baseball card it has to have been sold or used commercially. For example,
your 1959 Topps card was sold commercially in a wax pack with gum at a store. Some kid probably forked
over his allowance in 1959 to get your card. Other baseball cards were used for advertising and have
ads printed on them. The Peck & Snyder cards have ads for Peck & Snyder sporting goods and
were given out as ads for the company.

The photo you linked to is a fine and early baseball photograph, but probably was not sold
in a store or used for advertising. Thus, it doesn't count as a baseball card.

The earliest known baseball cards were the Peck & Snyder cards, with the 1868 Peck & Snyder Brooklyn
Atlantics being the first in the set.

One of the Peck & Snyder cards is of James Creighton, who is pictured in the photo
you linked to. He's the guy third from the left, and he was the first big baseball star.

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Posted By: jason

Sean,

Although not a card, his early albumized salt print cabinet may be of interest for your records. It is one of the earliest known team shots and represents a singularly rare uniform type. The featured team is the Pop & Go BBC who possibly hailed out of Pennsylvania. It originally came from Mark Rucker’s collection and he believes that it dates from around 1859-61. I too concur with Mark’s assessment given: the transitionary nature between albumen & salt, the mount and the uniform with the 1850’s V front bib evident on the far left bottom row player). Mark didn’t have too much other background on it other than the Pennsylvania link. If anyone else has any other info on them, I would love to hear from you (it’s just a touch hard carrying out research from the UK!)

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Hi Jason,

You may want to talk with Scott Forrest as he was the "original" owner of the Pop & Go. photograph.
A fine early piece in my opinion, but not sure about its age since I haven't had the pleasure of holding it in person.

I'm sure Scott is still reading the board.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The 1860 Excelsior photo which resides at the New York Public Library is a mammoth plate salt print, roughly the size of a poster. Possibly the greatest early baseball image extant, but in no way a baseball card. Is the focus of this thread the earliest baseball card or the earliest known baseball image? I think it is losing its focus.

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Posted By: jason

Hi Jimmy,

Thanks for the heads up - I will try and track him down somehow.

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Posted By: jason

Hi Barry,

Hope you had a nice vacation.

I think that Sean was interested in learning as much as possible about early baseball and that it is us "collectors" who keep getting caught up in the old is it a baseball card, is it not debate.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Jason- I did have a nice vacation other than catching lyme disease, and I am currently back in Brooklyn. I think the debate over what constitutes a baseball card boils down to a simple premise- baseball cards are worth more than other forms of memorabilia. If you call a Peck & Snyder an advertising trade card, which it always was until just recently, it is worth x. But if you can call it a baseball card, its value magically triples. Now just about everything that's square, made of paper, isn't too large and fits in a slab is called a baseball card. There's nothing wrong with definitions changing and evolving, but collectors should understand what is behind it.

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Posted By: Sean

no the thread is about the oldest baseball card but i still would like to know about earliest known photograph

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

I have to think the earliest baseball related photograph is the c. 1848-49 dag of six members of the knickerbocker club with Alexander Cartwright.

I'll let Jason post the scan of his c. 1858 ambrotype. Not sure if there is an earlier one picturing players dressed and showing equipment.