Opinions on Soaking/Pressing

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

You're a high-grade PSA collector, right?
Think all your 8's and 9's have never had any of the above that Scott B is describing done to them? Pressing and trimming wouldn't be visible under a black light either....

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

So Hal the fact that your cards got rained on when you were a kid is the basis on which you justify the practice of intentionally soaking a card in order to remove a crease, and then "get[ting] it past" a grader into a holder 2 or 3 grades higher than it might otherwise have received? Is that your position? EDITED TO FIX TYPO

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

I don't know the answer to that question.

I will call Mike Baker and ask what he thinks.

I would never buy a card that I knew this had been done to and it snuck into a psa 8 holder.

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

It is sad that alteration of any kind - whether it be soaking or trimming - is even discussed favorably in this forum. It's a slippery slope - if you support soaking today, what's to stop the practice of trimming later? The people that support soaking, for the most part do so in order to get their cards higher grades, i.e., to make MORE money not just for the LOVE of the hobby. Stop the BS and at least admit it.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Oh come on Jeff, as a lawyer surely you can see the distinction between "natural" alterations such as soaking and artificial ones such as trimming. It's a bright line distinction that is clear as day, not a slippery slope. Were there any exacto knives in the Garden of Eden? QED.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I think everyone needs to reread scott b's post above as terms that mean different things are being used interchangeably here.

Soaking to get scrap paper that shouldnt be on the card off is completely different in my opinion. These cards are not "pressed" they are dried b/t pieces of paper under books. They are not stretched and they are not trimmed. I dont even believe that this removes wrinkles.

Pressing is completely different process that is used to stretch the card prior to trimming it.

As for the distinction b/t storing a card in a book or envelope and in an album - that is truly a stretch.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

<As for the distinction b/t storing a card in a book or envelope and in an album - that is truly a stretch.>
That was my comment. What are you saying? My point was that high grade prewar cards escaped handling, through whatever good fortune. They lasted several generations without being worn, which is worthy of a premium value. Not nearly so for cards glued in an album and then removed and soaked. You disagree?

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Posted By: Tim James

I would be happy to give my two cents worth on this.My boss happens to be a coin collector.When it comes to grading coins,they can tell if a coin has been "cleaned".Any cleaning or solvent liquids that have been used are evident during the grading process.I'm not sure the current "popular graders" for b-ball cards can tell if a card has been "restored" or not,but I know this is true for the coin guys out there.I can give pointers for paper restoration and archival display,but ultimately,I would say leave it alone unless somebody who knows what they are doing is handling your cards.

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Posted By: tbob

Scott B's point is well made. There is a huge difference between soaking T206 commons to remove paper on the back from a scrapbook album and the people who soak and stretch and trim cards.
I also find it humorous that there seems to be an attitude of disdain from certain collectors about people who soak, stretch and trim (I don't like these guys either) but admit to all those beautiful PSA 8s and 9s in their collection. Just where do you think these cards came from????

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Posted By: Dennis W.

For the record - as noted in my previous responses in this thread - I have no problem with soaking cards. I do have a problem with the soak-press-trim practice that Scott B. defined. I've never done it, didn't know you could do it, certainly never will do it and definitely do not condone it.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Todd,

To some extent I do disagree. I think any card that survives 100 years in a condition even remotely resembles how they looked when issued deserves a premium regardless of how they survived (excluding trimmed, bleached, and otherwise altered cards). I guess my thought is that today there are all sorts of products available to store and protect cards and other collectibles for the future. These products werent available in the early 1900s. If someone chose to glue their cards to a scrap book b/c that was the best way to protect them and the glue/paper can be removed w/o damaging the card, who am I to say its any worse a method than putting it in a book, envelope or cigar box.

Personally, while Ive done it once (card still in my collection), I dont make it a point to soak cards (frankly, Im too scared of ruining them) but I wouldnt have any problem bidding on a card that has had paper/glue removed and would buy such a card with or without disclosure and w/o any discount.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I should also add, that I would never knowingly buy a bleached, trimmed, pressed (to remove wrinkles) or other altered card unless it was at a severe discount to its unaltered value.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

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Posted By: Tim James

I would say,soaking a card would not be detectible with the graders.Water along with wood pulp,being the key ingredients,would not raise a flag when being examined.

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: Tim James

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.If the person that sees the beauty has the scratch,he'll jump.You could never turn a 5 into a 9,we are chained to the standard that is in place until something changes it.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I can understand being upset if you bought a psa 8 or 9 that you later found out had been soaked, pressed and rolled for purposes of eliminating wrinkles, stretching the card and trimming the card. However, for the life of me, I cant understand why anyone would be upset to learn that the card you just bought once had scrap book paper attached if removal of the paper was all that was done (ie no eliminating wrinkles, no cleaning, no bleaching, no trimming, etc). You have the card as it was in its unaltered original state. Its not like bleaching or building the corners back up where the card has been altered so that it appears in a "like-original" state.

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Posted By: Dennis W.

Josh you state:

"I cant understand why anyone would be upset to learn that the card you just bought once had scrap book paper attached if removal of the paper was all that was done (ie no eliminating wrinkles, no cleaning, no bleaching, no trimming, etc)."

I think part of the reason some people have a problem with soaking paper residue off is that you really can't do it without cleaning the card. It's a byproduct of the process. Also, when you dry a card between books it does lesson and/or remove wrinkles. That too is a byproduct of the process. To be clear I'm only talking about soaking paper off a card and drying it between books.

In other words it's a matter of "you can't have your cake and eat it too", if you want the paper off you gotta clean it (not you specifically but anyone with cards containing residue).

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Can someone PLEASE answer my question?


So far I have heard that T206's are "soakable"...

and so are the E120 type Caramel cards...

but what about more "modern" cards?


Could some of my 1933 Goudey slabbed cards have been soaked?

What about 1952 Topps?

At what point did cards become "unsoakable" to where the soaking would mess up the card and leave it unslabbable??

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Unbelievable...

The way to be sure you have a collection that is free of T206s that have been soaked is to not collect T206s.... Or be about 130 years old and only have the cards you obtained directly from the little cigarette packs.

If you had a T206 Polar Bear with a almost loose piece of tobacco on the back, would you touch your finger nail to the speck and see if it would fall free???

An old, wise collector of more than half a century told me about how he and a friend would advertise in a newspaper that they would be buying old baseball cards, and would be at room # such and such at so and so motel... They'ed rent the room and wait. Some weekends only a few would show up. Some weekends many would appear. Most T206s were in scrapbooks, and flour paste had been used to glue the cards into the scrapbooks. (Don't you reckon that most loose cards were long lost, and almost all of what we have came from scrapbooks?) They would haggle out a price, buy the scrapbook, run water in the bathtub, and float the T206s off. I was shocked at the idea of putting an old T206 in water.

But finally, I tried it. On a dirty, beat up card. Tap water in a glass. (For those of you who smoke, your smoke is more harmful to the cards than tap water would be.) The card didn't separate, as I'd feared... lots of the dirt came off. The scrapbook remains on the back fell free. It was great. I rinsed the card once under the tap, blotted both sides with a paper towel to remove surface water, then put the card between some copy paper, with that under 2 or 3 heavy books.

I encourage everyone to soak off the scrapbook bits, dirt, and tobacco bits. I encourage those outraged at this thought to soak their heads...

DO NOT SOAK GOUDEY CARDSS! They are a sandwich of 3 papers, and will separate. You'll have a mess.

Paper is tough stuff... paper survived the world trade center better than the steel and concrete. Paper is made with water. We're not discussing cutting and trimming, bleaching, adding ink, restoring paper loss.... I had a 1937 Dodge sedan for a few years. It still had the original interior. 94,000 miles. 2 owners. I'm ashamed to say I did wash dirt off of it...

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I'm with Frank.


I took a shower this morning...

and I don't feel "tainted" or "altered" at all.



If I spill a drop of ketchup on my card...

can I blow it off with my mouth? (YES)

Can I scrape it off with my finger? (YES)

Can I wipe it off with a dry cloth? (YES)

Can I wipe it off with a damp cloth? (YES)

But I can't soak the card in a glass of water?

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Posted By: steve f

Don't state the obvious, it is well known... I really should get a job.

Sean Skeffington, If your'e here fell free to chime in.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Although I am not outraged, I still say soak this! I'll get by just fine without any encouragement from you.

My opinions on this subject have not changed. Collect what the hell you want, and pretty up your cards as you see fit.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I know this is slightly off topic...

but did someone say that COINS are considered "altered" in that hobby if they are cleaned in any way??


Just curious.


I am guessing that WATER alone would not really do anything to help clean a coin... so I suppose that chemicals of some sort are used?

Is that what is considered a "no-no" in the coin collecting world?

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Hal, it is okay to clean a coin with water...When people speak of cleaning coins they are talking about chemical treatments. If you weren't "allowed" to clean a coin you would never even see an ancient coin it would be a mass of dirt.

Back to the topic at hand...I don't see why it matters to anyone if a card has been soaked if you can't tell....I would bet that 99% of all Scrapps were soaked at one time or another. It's one thing to trim and press a card, but soaking to remove scrapbook residue shouldn't be a problem at all.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Good point.

Again, it would be completely impossible to ever tell if a coin has been soaked in pure water and then allowed to air dry.

Thus, it is OK in that hobby.

Apparently it is also impossible to ever tell if a T206 card has been soaked in water, as long as it was pressed dry in the same dimensions as it was before the soaking?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

If EVERY single T206 card in existence COULD have been "soaked and pressed" WITHOUT leaving any possible trace of this having happened...

isn't it pretty naive and fruitless to be so adamantly OPPOSED to this practice??


Isn't it essentially IMPOSSIBLE to prove that ANY T206 card is "unsoaked"??


Even a card that has been in an ATTIC for 95+ years COULD have been "soaked and pressed" in 1909 by any kid with access to water and a book.


I just find it funny to hear people say that they are so AGAINST this practice when there is NO WAY to trace or prove it.


It reminds me of all the baseball executives who were so adamantly against steroids BEFORE there was any testing that could PROVE the players were taking them.

They had their heads buried in the sand and wanted to sound like they were taking the moral high road.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Yes, Hal, you may find it "fully" (I presume you meant "funny"), but a lot of people are opposed to the intentional alteration of a card in order to improve its condition, "get it past" the graders (that language of course presumes that if the graders knew they would not approve), and make more money. Whether or not it can be detected is not relevant to the ethical point -- are you saying if one could commit a crime with no possibility of being caught then it would be OK?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Hal, I'm sure your answer to that question would be different from mine.

If an altered or flawed card appears in a high-graded PSA slab without being downgraded, is it altered or flawed at all?

Hal, I KNOW your answer to that question would be different from mine.

If a person erases writing from a card, which of course was never intended to be there in the first place, is that something that should downgrade the card?

Only if detected?

If someone soaked the glue off of a card right before the grader's eyes, would you care if he gave it a high grade and ignored the removal?

Depends on if you're buyer or seller?

The baseball steroid analogy eludes me. Are you suggesting that owners are singing a different tune now that the players are tested? I don't seee that. What I did see was a widespread attitude of "everyone's doing them, so who cares" for years. That kind of attitude may be what is adopted by this board as relates to card soaking. Make of it what you will.

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Posted By: Josh K.

actually if s/o soaked scrapbook paper and glue off right before my eyes, had it graded, and it rec'd a high grade, I would buy the card and would not discount it in the least. I think the big difference here is that I dont consider that an alteration. I consider gluing it to a scrapbook in the first place an alteration.

I notice no one has answered Hal's question, so I will ask a similar question: If you were packaging your cards and getting ready to send them to the graders and your kid ran by, tried to grab your t206 to see what it was and in doing so the snot on his finger was transfered to your card, must it stay there for all eternity or can you take a moist paper towel and wipe it off before sending it in?

If your answer is anything other than "it must stay there" you are being hypocritical.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

You guys are missing my point.


I assume that you guys own some T206 cards, right?

I also assume that you guys were NOT the original owners of those T206 cards who pulled them from packs in 1909, right?

And even GRADED T206 cards from every grading service may very well have been soaked and pressed, right?


So my point is...

how is it so "NOBLE" to NOT soak a T206 card that might very well have ALREADY BEEN SOAKED at some point during the past 95 years??



That was my steroid analogy.

You guys own T206 cards and have NO WAY to prove that they were NOT soaked... so you can take the "moral high road" and say that you are adamanatly against soaking and pressing.

BUT... if they came out TOMORROW with a way to PROVE that ALL of your T206 cards have been soaked and pressed in the past...

then you might sing a different tune.



Josh is right.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Soaking is no big deal IMO. I don't consider it an "alteration".

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

To summarize my position:


I have never soaked a card in water in the past...

and I will never soak a card in water in the future...

but I am not so naive as to think that the cards I own may not have been soaked at some point during their lifespan.


There is nothing I can do to "disprove" this... so I might as well be able to live with it.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Do you guys try and make your cards look more presentable before sending them in for grading? Or do you just toss them into a card saver and ship them off?

Do you press a frayed corner back into the card so that it's not flipped up in the slab, or do you leave them frayed?

Do you wipe fingerprints off the card, or do you leave them there?

Would you flick a little goober off the face of the card with a fingernail, or do you leave the goober?

Maybe wipe off a small patch of glue or tobacco, or let it remain on the card?

Do you blow dust off the card, or leave it dusty?

If the card has a little fuzz along an edge, do you try and press it back into the edge, so that it's a little less noticeable, or do you leave it?



Last year I bought a small lot of T206s, really cheap. They all had scrapbook paper on the backs. One of them had a Tolstoi back - my first. I was bummed that I couldn't see the entire Tolstoi ad, because of the paper. I noticed that the scrapbook paper had flipped up in one corner, so I grabbed it with my finger, and tried lifting it up a little more. Boom - the scrapbook paper came right off the card, with almost no effort at all, revealing a beautiful Tolstoi ad.

Should I have glued the scrapbook paper back onto the card?

-Al

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

I don't understand the mentality here...If it's undetectable to soak a card and remove scrapbook and glue how is that wrong? That is not altering the card in any way. How does a Scrapps "card" get into a holder with a grade on it? I can guarantee you that 99% of them have been soaked.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I would not sing a different tune. If I found out tomorrow that certain of my cards had been soaked, I likely would not discard them, but I might very well seek to upgrade or swap them out, and I DAMN SURE would disclose the fact that they had been soaked if and when I went to sell them. After all, if it doesn't matter that the card has been soaked, then what's the harm in disclosing the soaking? Would you disclose--oh that's right, your cards already come in a pretty little slab, no need to care what the card might have actually looked like at one time.

And I do understand other people's points. I simply disagree with Josh, as I indicated.

As for answering questions, what about mine? If PSA slabs it, is it good to go? If an intentional pencil mark is intentionally erased and is undetected, no harm, no foul? Different from soaking how?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I believe erasing the pencil mark would also remove some of the paper from the outer layer of the card, but I might be wrong.

I don't know anything about erasing... just like I didn't know anything about soaking before reading this thread.

I'm just voicing my honest opinion, not championing the rights of one position or the other.


What would be so wrong with just assuming that EVERY T206 card in history has been soaked and pressed??


That's basically what I am doing from now on.

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Posted By: Wesley

Josh, To answer your question, there is a world of difference between wiping a booger off your T206 card and actually soaking a T206 card in distilled water and then pressing it. I would not be happy to learn that some of my cards have been soaked and pressed at one point, although this thread leads me to believe that such practices are more prevalent than I had imagined.

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Posted By: robert a

I'm gonna go bust out all of my PSA 1s and soak them.
Do you guys think I'll get em' into GAI 1.5 holders?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Robert:

No need to do that...

because they were all already soaked and pressed BEFORE they were slabbed.

Yours were just some of the ones that didn't fare so well in the washing machine!

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I do know a bit about pencils and erasing. There are eraser products out there that will remove a mark without removing the paper. Artgum is the main one. Many sketch artists use Artgum erasers to fix their work in progress with no aesthetic impact on the medium. If the pencil marking is very light and did not make an indentation into the paper, it often can be erased in a manner that cannot be seen by the naked eye or felt. Whether it would show up under a microscope or black light I cannot say. However, if the slabheads out there think that PSA or SGC or GAI is putting every card under a microscope, you are in for a very rude awakening. I've watched the GAI folks pre-grade cards at shows. Ten seconds out of the sleeve under a regular light and if nothing catches the grader's eye the grade is assigned and the sticker applied. No black lights, no CSI equipment. Just a man, a card and a reading lamp.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Let me get this straight Josh, taking out a crease is the same as flicking a piece of snot off a card? And if I think there is a difference I am a hypocrite?

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Posted By: David Vargha

I have a couple of SGC 2's that I soaked. The reason I did it is because they look better when I can see what the back looks like.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Like I said before...

from now on, I will simply consider EVERY T206 card to have been soaked and pressed at some point in time.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Peter - Please go back and read my posts - I have never advocated taking a crease out of a card. I am referring to soaking a card in water to remove a piece of paper stuck to the card. This is no different than using a water dampened paper towel to remove a piece of snot.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Maybe I am just a cynical pessimist...

but if it is truly possible for someone to "soak and press" a T206 card and remove the wrinkles...

then it is almost a VIRTUAL CERTAINTY that several people are out there doing so RIGHT NOW and then re-selling the cards for a profit.

And like someone said... it is pretty much guaranteed that people have been doing this for DECADES.


If there is no way to detect this type of thing...

then it is just TOO EASY of a way for someone to be making a big profit on EBay, etc.



Is it right? NO.

Is it preventable? NO.

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Posted By: RayB

I'm sorry, hypothetical examples don't work for me. Anybody can paint you into a box by concocting a hypothetical which doesn't allow for a way for you to justify your own opinion.
Should I really forge checks to see if the teller "authenticates" it so I can slip it past the bank to "enhance " my personal worth? Of course not.
It's a matter of ethics. It's not whether or not a given card in your own collection has ever been altered in it's travels prior to it residing with you, it's more about whether or not you have soaked, are soaking or would be willing to soak for condition enhancement. I'm against it. If your answer is yes I do it than it's sad you feel that way.
The shame of it is that now soaked (enhanced) cards are also being presented to Authenticators (without disclosure)for the expressed purpose of better grade treatment. Those of you doing this certainly aren't doing it just for personal satisfaction of having your cards look better; it's because this card will present as a "higher" grade and be worth more if you can "slip" it by the graders through to authentication.
Overlooking or grudgingly accepting the fact that a small percentage of cards have been tweaked over the years is one thing; but Espousing and utilizing the "Doctoring 101" methodology of soaking cards is bad ethics.
RayB

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Posted By: Wesley

I suppose if upon selling a soaked card there is full disclosure to potential buyers that might be ok.

BUT I have yet to see an ebay auction with warnings that a card has been soaked and pressed to remove wrinkles or soaked to remove some residue scrapbook paper and glue.