(Honus Wagner) CIGAR BOX

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Hal- trade cards are extremely desirable and collectible and I think any baseball item tied to a product is important, especially ones with advertising for sporting goods stores and tobacco. The Reccius may not be a traditional baseball card, but it is a significant baseball artifact.

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Posted By: PASJD

Is the 50-51 Toteleros Josh Gibson any less desirable just because it was issued shortly after his death, even though it is the only Josh Gibson card in existence?

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Posted By: David Vargha

Is the 50-51 Toteleros Josh Gibson any less desirable just because it was issued shortly after his death, even though it is the only Josh Gibson card in existence?

Heh

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Hal--The answer to virtually all your questions is: Yes, it is less desireable than if it was a traditionally issued baseball card. The "trimmed" Wagner is only desireable because a grading service has declared it untrimmed.

and Yes, the Gibson is less desireable than if it was issued while he was playing.

All of these pieces have considerable value but they could have been more valuable if....

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I apologize if I already mentioned this earlier in this thread:

In the 1903 city directory for Louisville, it lists for the FIRST time a BUSINESS address for Henry Reccius Cigars (W. Market Street) as well as his "Elliott Street" residence address.

Thus, one would think that if the card was issued anytime AFTER 1903... it would have included his BUSINESS address and phone number as well (and probably ONLY his business address and phone).

Just another argument in favor of the card being from very early on.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

This is from the National Cigar Museum website:

"In 1900, anyone could order any cigar packed in any type box with any words or pictures they wanted on the label. Wholesalers routinely ordered custom brands and exotic boxes, as did retailers of all sizes, from fancy big city tobacconists to small town cafes. It was possible for a cigar company to make two cigars, usually a domestic five center and a Havana blend for a dime, yet offer hundreds of brands for sale, frequently competing against itself in the same counter."

(This 1900 information conforms precisely with the pricing information on my 1897-99 card. One would think that by 1920 or so, the prices of cigars would NOT still be at those 1899 levels.)

"The cigar industry was unique in the ease with which such brand and packaging customization was possible. Ever since the Civil War, anyone could contact their favorite tobacconist or wholesaler and through them order custom cigar labels. But the use of personalized labels didn't become commonplace until the mid 1890's, when changes in printing and photo technology made it possible to turn any photograph into a cigar box label with the utmost ease, and very little expense. Suddenly, not only manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers, but smokers themselves could order their house, business or children to be pictured on a cigar label for a surcharge as little as two cents. Customers responded to the opportunity to design their own labels with humor and imagination.

(This shows that by 1897, the technology was certainly in place to manufacture my card. It also shows how EASY it would have been for anyone else besides Reccius to also manufactire "Honus Wagner" cigars - as someone else obviously did.)

"Labels which include screened printed black and white photographs were called 'vanity labels' by the cigar box trade and now by collectors. They were particularly popular between 1898 and 1925, though a few vanities could be seen in cigar counters for a quarter century thereafter."

(Again, this shows that Reccius could have made my card and his packaging as early as 1898)

-------------------------


According to the Museum, Reccius was a "small fish" in a big pond of cigar makers back in 1900... so it is very unlikely that his cigars were ever distributed OUTSIDE of Louisville.

This is consistent with the fact that my card was found inside a scrapbook that had also NEVER left Louisville and which contained items from circa 1900.

Again, just seems likely that Reccius JUMPED on the popularity of "Hans" Wagner in 1898 since he was trying to sell cigars IN LOUISVILLE.

After all... Wagner was not FROM Louisville... and never returned there after leaving for Pittsburgh and becoming a big shot there. So why use his image to sell cigars in LOUISVILLE after Wagner was a distant memory?

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Posted By: PASJD

If you are so convinced the card is what it purports to be, Hal, then why are you selling it?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hal- Just to shoot down your point about why would Louisville use Wagner's picture after he left the city: the Beatles haven't lived in Liverpool in forty years, but you can be certain that Liverpool to this day and for the foreseeable future takes full advantage of being the city that was the birthplace of it all. If Wagner was Louisville's favorite son, and I'm sure he was very popular even early in his career, why not continue to make use of a good thing? That point simply doesn't hold up as well as others you have made.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Also, on a 1920s cigar box we still have Wagner in his Louisville uniform--why not change it to Pittsburgh if you are trying to capitalize on a name player?

Hal--You have made arguements as to why the trade card could be pre-1900 but you have never made the arguement as to why it MUST be pre-1900. I would think a buyer of this trade card would require that. Why not have someone check the newspapers in the main Louisville library. I'm sure some of the ads in the paper had phone numbers. See when five digit numbers started. That may help you further narrow down the date of the trade card.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Jay: I am sure that PSA did that and a lot more when they were certifying the card.

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Posted By: PASJD

The same PSA that never discovered that 48 Leafs were really 49? I doubt it. (edited to add: Like Barry I am not bashing PSA, just highly skeptical that for one card they would have engaged in an extensive research project including researching the history of Louisville phone numbers.)(edited to further add: Besides Hal if you really had all that confidence in PSA's research why would you have engaged in so much of your own?)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Nothing against PSA here (this is not bashing) but for the $100 fee I assume you paid to have the card authenticated, how many man hours could they possibly devote to it? After all, they are running a business.

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Posted By: vetekbob

Hal,
I hope you are able to sell it and get the ruth card that you want and I wish you the best on that.
Maybe I am too simplistic in my thinking or trying to oversimply things in following the thread here, but it has been said on the board over and over one should buy the card and not just focus on the grade. Maybe it is in fact as Hal has been researching and maybe there will be a gap in researching the card that makes it hard if not impossible to know the absolute 100% facts and story as to the making and origin of the card time wise. That being said, Whether one is ever able to get to the bottom of it all or not doesnt detract from the fact that it is a great card from either a type perspective, HOF'er perspective or from a history perspective as it relates to the game as a whole. If Hal is fine with selling it and a buyer is fine with acquiring the card knowing what they can about the card and its history then that is all that really matters in the end isnt it?

basicgreatguy@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree.

Jay:

Here is the PROBLEM with trying to DATE the phone number by the "digit" count:

Once they EXPANDED to 4 and then 5 digits... your number REMAINED whatever it was.

In other words, if your phone number in Louisville was "22" in 1888... then it remained "22" even when other people were being assigned "4563".

Here is proof of this:

The 1911 City Directory for G. Henry Reccius:

http://distantcousin.com/Directories/KY/Louisville/1911/Pages.asp?Page=0964

Scroll down and the ad at the bottom has a 4 digit phone number.

BUT...

here is another page from the same 1911 directory, and this ad has a 3 digit phone number at the bottom of the page:

http://distantcousin.com/Directories/KY/Louisville/1911/Pages.asp?Page=0087

If I look further, I could probably even find a 2 digit phone number still being used in 1911...

and if I found a 5 digit number, it wouldn't tell us anything since Reccius would have kept his 4 digit one.

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Posted By: barry sloate

Hal- We may never know with absolute certainty the year of this card, but I must once again say the depth of your research is extraordinary. You should be writing articles on various card sets (I know you are very busy) because nobody does research like you do. Even when I was working on my PhD I didn't have your work ethic (and ultimately, I never finished it).

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Posted By: PASJD

Barry I hope that (unlike Dave Bushing) you don't have a resume out there somewhere claiming you have that degree.

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Posted By: barrysloate

MA in English Lit-yes. PhD, sadly no.

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Posted By: PASJD

It seems there are several interesting questions here.
1. Obviously, the date of the card.
2. Philosophical questions about dating. What should grading companies (or sellers) do when the date of a card is uncertain? Or put another way, is it ok to date a card if there is a reasonable doubt? A scintilla of doubt? Or put still another way, what was PSA's obligation in terms of research before designating the date of the card?
3. Can a trade card be considered a rookie card?
4. Can a local/regional card be considered a rookie card?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Determining if the Reccius is a rookie card is subjective and it is not the responsibility of PSA to decide this. Dating the card, however, is more objective, as it has a direct effect on what it may bring in the marketplace. Despite all the effort Hal has made to date it, we may never know for sure unless some documentation can be found in a newspaper or periodical which indisputably determines this. Finding exactly when this card was made may just be one of those things that remains a mystery forever.

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Posted By: ted

First, please don't read this post and feel that it is an attempt to slight anyone or take away from the uniqueness of the item in question. I am most certainly not as learned on the aforementioned topic as many of you are. But, from what i have read on this and other websites, I must agree that this is in fact a piece of advertising, rather than a traditional "baseball card." First and foremost, as Scott points out, there is no reference to Wagner as a player on this card. So much so, that he isn't even wearing a uniform (unless players used to wear ties during games). Shouldn't baseball cards at least reference baseball? Furthermore, I have a real problem with "rookie" cards that depict players before they are actually "rookies" Take for example the 84 Olympic McGwire. Many refer to that as his rookie card... I don't know why...it seems that "rookie card" has gradually come to mean "first readily available trading card." I am sure there are many pictures of a young Henry Aaron playing baseball before 1954, I'm sure that some of these pictures were in the form of a card, but regardless...they are not his rookie card. Such is the case with this piece. I am well aware of the history of the National League and if wagner wasn't playing for a team in the national league, then he wasn't a rookie. As such, i find it a bit unusual to term it "rookie card." Especially when a valid case can be made for the fact that it isn't even a baseball card to begin with.
Most importantly, I am NOT under the impression that Hal is in anyway trying to mislead someone, rather, i believe him to have a different interpretation of the situation than people like scott and myself have. Nontheless, as the owner of an online Auction Assitant/Auction House, I must say that i feel a more effective strategy when selling a piece of this magnitude is to concentrate on what is generally considered to be true, rather than what is circumstantially true. In otherwords, we can at least agree that it is a card of some manner. It appears that it is the only known copy in existance. I as a buyer would be interested enough in the product to research it a great deal. Therefor, i am not driven by the catch phrase "rookie card," but i can't speak for others who may or may not have a true knowledge of what they are buying.
Once again, these are just my thoughts, seeing as this is my first post regarding my opinions, i hope people understand it as just that. This is furthered by the fact that i have met few if any of you in person and am not in the business of upsetting people, especially people i don't know. I guess this is just to provide hal the opportunity to explain why the card is listed in the manner it is and perhaps consider a new opinion and perspective on the object.

Best Regards,
BlackSoxFan

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Ted:

The uniform is in fact the uniform of the Louisville Colonels.

That fact was established when the card was first discovered back around 1997 by the Louisville Historical Society using all of the old photographs they have on hand of the team.

I don't know if there are any such photos on-line or not, but we can check.

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Posted By: ted

Really, I would be shocked to find that players actually wore ties on the baseball field...but if that has been established okay, it still doesn't sway me enough to consider it a true baseball card. But i would love to see that picture...

BlackSoxFan

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Posted By: Wesley

Afterall, these guys are wearing ties. Look more like plaintiff lawyers to me.

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Posted By: ted

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think he is pointing out that players did wear ties at times in the olden days.

Maybe only for SUNDAY games?

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Posted By: PASJD

Those guys look too upright to be plaintiffs' lawyers.

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Posted By: Kevin

I saw your card on Ebay and never saw a card like that before, I have only seen a HONUS WAGNER like that before, how in conclusion, you settled to a price of: $75,000.00, is there anywhere in a price guide that has it at a price like that, getting the Card graded by PSA was a big risk unless you got the card graded personally at a trade show. Can you send me a pic of the back because I know how it looks on the front but how does it look on the bac, any wear? I saw it go for between $10,000-$20,000 at an Auction, how many are there made? Do you have anymore info on that card?

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Posted By: Kevin

Was this card also reproduced because yours, Hal looks like the real deal, can I see how the back looks like, does it have the stamp on it, I saw many cards as well of that card but I feel like it is a reproduction card w/ no stamp on the back as well.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Kevin:

The scans that you or your friend sent me are of a cheap modern forgery of the card.

I will NEVER show anyone the back of my card, because that will prevent people from copying it and trying to sell forgeries.

Please attach the scans you sent me (but try to get better ones that they super-fuzzy ones you sent) because you will hear very quickly from everyone here that the one you are discussing is a bad copy job.

Heck, they didn't even get his name right.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Hal

I'll bite and guess in my best Magritte impression that the back of the card says:

"Ceci n'est pas une carte de baseball"

Max



For those dis-allusioned, I add: