Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly

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Posted By: Hankron

I will take the middle ground. I have never met Dan and I have never met anyone at PSA, so it would be impossible for me to come to a conclusion as to what happened and who is the guilty party-- and I have no idea how anyone knows what happens from 12 posts on an internat board. My pet peave is people who come to conclusions (guilt/innocence/the essential details) of a big headline-grabbing case from watching fifteen minutes of the trial on the television or watching excerpts/commentary from Entertainment Tonight. When people come to conclusions so hastily, this usually indicates that person had already made up his mind before the case started and often before the supposed crime was even committed (predilictions).

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Posted By: runscott

Some of us know Dan, and so we're voicing our opinions. Just like I know you, so I could voice my opinion as to your credibility if you got into a jam like this.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Way back when I used to use PSA, I had a similar experience. I sent them a 1959 Topps Don Drysdale that was just beautiful. When I got it back it was a 9(OC) with a noticeably crimped corner(looked like someone had picked it up from a flat surface from the other end of the card and had slightly bent the card in the process. I screamed bloody murder at PSA and demanded $$ to cover the difference between a 9 and a 7. Rocchi called me to explain that they would have to check the "grading records" before sending me $$ to cover the loss. I asked what these records were--and then found out that there were none. I was asked to send back the card for their review, which I did. A few weeks later I received the card back in a new holder still graded 9(OC) but with a perfectly straight corner. How it got that way I can't say for sure. I've still got it--given its history, I don't know what to do with it. PSA # 09003765, in case anyone is curious.

I'd be ok if these turkeys screwed up occasionally and took responsibility. What burns my @$$ is the way they squirm around when they make a mistake. Step up and be men about it (no offense to our female readers)!

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Posted By: MW

I have to agree with Scott on this one. Many of us have done business with Dan and some here have even done extensive business with PSA. To that extent, we are, as David suggests, expressing our opinions in this matter; but they are, in some cases, well-educated opinions, based on many years of direct experience with one or both parties involved. Frankly, I think this forum is great testing ground for these educated opinions and other statements that may even fall into the category of conjecture or mere speculation.

The bottom line is that a $6K card is missing and no one seems to want to take responsibility for it. Personally, I find it very improbable that Dan is not being completely forthright in this situation. He sent a valuable vintage card to PSA and it has completely vanished. Must we all go to detective school or have been direct witnesses in order to draw reasonable conclusions?

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Posted By: Hankron

Scott, I think this was a case of clicking the 'respond' button two seconds apart, as my post was not in response to your comments. I'm not saying people can't have theories or opinions or takes (I certainly offer my own on this board). I was merely commenting on people who jump to conclusions.

If anyone does not beleive how one's biases and predilictions shape one's view of objective situations and even facts, post this Magee story over on the PSA board and watch the reaction. You will likely find that many on the PSA board had made up their minds about this case long before it even happened. If you were to post on PSA board this excact story except say that the grader was Beckett instead of PSA, I bet you will find that their interpretation of the facts will magically change.

My point being that, like trying to look through a car window on a sunny day, people's interpretation of external facts and seemingly objective external situations is often mostly a reflection of themselves.

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Posted By: MW

<< I don't think that anyone opening packages at PSA needs a Maggie card for their T206 set. >>

You're absolutely right. It would be the "Magie" that they would be looking for. Although, come to think of it, the "Maggie" might be even rarer.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Hi Greg, I can appreciate and respect your position as we do not know each other. I read David's post meaning that most people hand carry the expensive cards in so there isn't many mailed and not that every expensive card that was mailed in would be lost or stolen.

If you know Charlie well, please feel free to discuss this situation with him, I will gladly provide you or Charlie any details that you may need. I have exhausted my contact with PSA since I called Joe directly so to then contact Charlie just doesn't seem like it would help.

I do agree that PSA is a large company that plans on being around awhile but to just blow me off and say the card was never in there without filming the box being opened, is crazy.
I packed and shipped 1 box that day containing 26 T206's and 1 being a very expensive 1 that belonged to me that I had paid alot of cash for. The day PSA received my package, 3 or 4 people are opening the packages and they received hundreds that day and none of those packages contain cards that belong to the people opening them. I was told by Peter that the receivers are not collectors but normal people who answered help wanted ads from the paper. Now which end of this shipping process would know exactly what was shipped? The sender or receivers?

Please feel free to email me directly if you think you can help. Thanks again. dan.

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Posted By: MW

David,

I don't think there is any question that a certain amount of subjectivity is involved here...just like there is when Supreme Court decisions are written, those who govern us draft new legislation, or the plumber you called attempts to unclog your sink. But let's apply a modicum of common sense here -- we could effectively nullify ANY Network54 "resolution" or statement of earnest by arguing that "we just don't know for certain" or by claiming that "those who argue a certain way have done so with bias."

I do, however, agree with your analysis that those on a different forum might very well argue a different problem causality; but keep in mind that there are differing degrees of experience, knowledge and expertise involved here. For instance, if I were to argue that no employee of PSA would EVER attempt to pilfer a vintage card and yet I was unaware of what a T206 Magie was, I had no personal contact with any PSA employee, I was unaware of PSA hiring practices and I had never even visited PSA "headquarters," that might be a good indication that I was arguing more for effect than out of respect for reason.

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Posted By: botn

Hi Dan

You are correct that we do not really know one another but I know many people who do speak highly of you, which is why I wanted to help.

I did speak with Charlie about this matter the other day as part of a conversation on another matter. I do not feel that it would be appropriate or fair to either of you for me to discuss what was said in that conversation before PSA has had their opportunity to complete their investigation.

I also called Steve Rocchi, President of GAI and former President of PSA, to discuss the internal controls that he had established while at PCGS and PSA. In that conversation he gave me a very detailed description of the grading process from the time that packages are picked up at the PO Box. Without knowing that I had even spoke to Steve, Charlie did tell me that the process employed while Steve was President, is still in use at PSA and PCGS.

A couple of people have brought up a great point. A few posts on this or any other board is not enough to exonerate or condemn PSA of negligence resulting in a $6,000 loss to you. At this point I have made no conclusions based on what I have been told. I have merely been gathering information.

Rest assured that while Joe and Charlie have not called back, and Charlie will not really be able to because he is no longer head of Customer Service, they are working on a resolution. I give you my word that you are not being avoided or cast aside. They will reply. Again, Peter in Customer Service is not the final authority on this matter. A decision of this nature will have to come from Joe.

From personal experience I have certainly had my share of problems and complaints about/with PSA but I still think that they are a good grading service and I still endorse the use of their service along with GAI and SGC. Even at my most contentious they have always tried to do what was best for both of us.

Best,
Greg

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks again Greg, I really do appreciate what you are doing. Peter told me the decision was final and that PSA was finished with the matter and that the "executives" agreed with him so I assumed that meant Joe and the rest. I also feel that PSA, SGC and Global which I am not too familiar with but I like what I see, are the leaders and are decent companies. I by no means feel PSA is out to rip anyone off purposely but I do feel my unique situation obviously exploited a weakness in their system and that I was brushed aside based on Peter's final call.

Thanks to all that have said good things about me, and Greg, your last post at least bought me a comfotable night's sleep tonight I hope since it was some relief.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Seems like a pretty darn expensive card to me. . .

You are correct that PSA has been handling this stuff for years, which makes their lack of a systematic record of their activities all the worse. Casinos have extensive systems to record the activities of their employees AND have personnel structures that avoid granting single individuals sole responsibility for money handling. These systems are hardly revolutionary and they are not secret--there is practically a documentary/travelogue a day on the Travel Channel about these systems. The card services trade on the public trust in their honesty. This can only be fostered by convincing the public that the service takes the same care of their cards as the owners would.

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Posted By: TBob

First off, I HAVE dealt with Dan in the past and know him to be soldily reputable and trustworthy. If Dan tells me he sent a T206 Magie and even has the image of the card, I believe him, whether or not he had the Pope personally witness the card being sealed in the package and submitted or not. Second, who the hell thinks a 6k card is not a "high dollar card????" What universe are you living in?
I have had my own run-in with a grading card company, though not PSA. The slabbers of the world are quick to point the finger and deny liability. Cards come back in lesser condition or marked or mangled or worse yet don't come back at all and somehow it is the veracity of the submitter which is called in to question. It is a damn shame that Dan is out 6k because of a mistake (maybe) by an employee which borders on fraud and is at least extreme negligence. We have given too much importance in our hobby to the all-powerful slabbed grading system. I would personally take the opinion of a Pete Calderon or a Leon Luckey or any of the other hobbyists on this board as to the legitimacy or aletration of a vintage card over some twinkie eater who is busy thinking about his date with Tiffany that night and has better things to think about and do then carefully and accurately grade a card from someone who doesn't fit the profile of a frequent submitter or high rolling company.
Sorry if I am ticked and sound a little peeved but Dan is a good guy and if I had just experienced the loss of a card worth $6,000.00 and was impliedly (or overtly) called a liar, I would be on the edge. The bottom line is I will never again submit a card for grading by mail to any card grading service. If you want to buy a "raw" card from me on ebay, I'll happily provide unretouched and detailed scans, but I will never submit any cards to a grading company even though I know the net result will be a higher yield on ebay for the card. Losing my business will be just a drop in the bucket to the slabbists, but Dennis Purdy was right on the money so long ago when he published his article in VCBC condemning the grading companies. I will still buy cards which have been slabbed (if they appear to MY eye to be o.k.) but never again will I submit one.
Just my 2 cents, fire away...

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Posted By: Glen V

I'll admit I've skipped parts of this thread. Forgive me if I get the facts wrong, but... Does PSA really video tape every package being opened. If they don't have the video tape, it seems like their defense is rather weak.

Changing subjects, why doesn't VCBC republish the grading article. It was by far their most popular, and the #7 issue is the only one that has ever sold out. Maybe an updated version?

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Posted By: dan mckee

TBOB, thanks bunches for the support! I really do appreciate it!

Glen, I was told by a customer service lady that there were cameras directly behind each receiver. Then when I brought this up to Joe Orlando, he stated that there were NOT cameras behind each receiver but that there were cameras scattered all over and that he would have his operations manager check the filming of my box. Well then mr. personality called me to crush me and said there were no cameras, no film, and that the card was never there and they were "FIRM" on that. WHAT A RUN AROUND! They may have cameras there but then didn't bother to check them. Yes I am miserable over this, I am out $6K, been considered a liar and a scammer by a supposedly professional, customer service based company.

To make matters worse, I am hearing that 1 of our publications wants no part of this story, which was going to be 1 of my only means of retaliation. dan.

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Posted By: MW

Dan,

Stay vigilant. You have many supporters on this forum and elsewhere.

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Posted By: dan mckee

thanks MW, that is what keeps me going!! take care, dan.

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Posted By: Al Zouky

My last submission was presented in person at the Ft. Washington Show. The rep checked every card against my list and I double checked it as well. Several weeks later, I got a call from PSA that the 1951 Hank Sauer card was missing. They had no idea where it could have been misplaced. They reimbursed me $65 for the card and have no clue how the card was misplaced.

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Posted By: MW

Joe Orlando's response from the CU forum:


Tuesday June 10, 2003 10:58 AM

Hello All,

I just wanted to make something very clear about this situation:

There is absolutely NO evidence that this card was ever sent to PSA. While PSA is certainly capable of making a mistake, in this situation, no mistake was made.

There were no documents that even referred to the card in the package and, let me ask the users this question, "Would any of you send a $6,000 card with no tracking capability or insurance?" The card was not registered, insured or sent by any method such as Fed Ex or UPS, etc. where it could be tracked.

Unless I am missing something, we have no responsibility in this situation - period. I am not making a judgement about the character of the submitter here, I am merely making a call based on the evidence presented. There is no evidence that this card ever existed.

PSA has made it a policy to compensate customers where certain mistakes are made and we stand behind that policy today.

Sincerely,

-------------------------
Joe Orlando

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Posted By: carew4me

According to what I am reading from JO, PSA has no culpability in this matter.

The card as mailed, seemed to violate most rules clearly stated on the submission form.

Unless JO is flat out lying I would grades Dan stupidity a 10.

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Posted By: Anonymous

In response to Joe's garbage and this other gent, I have had a registered package and ripped open by a postal employee, what is Joe's response to why the other $1500 worth of T206's that were received were not insured???? I have tracking, I shipped priority with signature confirmation. I have just shipped $7800 worth of cards to JC the same way and a $4000 E.R. Williams set priority signature confirmation to Rhys. Both of these individuals can vouch for this. Over my many years of experience, I have found the safest way to ship is this way yet not enticing a $12 per hour postal employee from ever ripping open another one of my packages. I have the scans from the registered box that was delivered empty and barehanded ripped open. I also have the word of JC and Rhys who are 2 well respected collectors.

So my only stupidity here was trusting a trash company with no customer service who has had this problem several times before (thanks for the many emails I am receiving by others who were ripped off by this) and decides not to do anything about it! Watch for my articles and customer awareness and hopefully dateline as well who I have already contacted. Let the games begin! You hosed the wrong dude this time!

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Posted By: dan mckee

that last post is me again. dan

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Posted By: dan mckee

Again! I have tracking via priority signature confirmation, Joe is lying! I have the emails where the card was sold if returned graded, Joe never asked to see these or anything else. I have the scan of this card and the other 15 dated May 17th which Joe also never asked to see or cared about. I have my original note with both submission numbers written on it. I have tons of things showing I shipped this card, and anyone who knows me knows I am not going to go through all of this crap to try to steal money from a large company. I have a current Top Secret clearance through the Army and I have been doing business in this hobby for 34 years. I will gladly post a scan of my tracking slip and anything else. I scanned the card immediately as requested. This is an insult, an outrage, and a down right joke by one sorry company and it's president!

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Posted By: carew4me

Dan,
Look at it objectively. You seem yo have a fine reputation and extensive hobby knowledge.
I dont doubt you for one moment.

Legaly however, PSA is under no obligation to you.
You sent the package the way YOU chose too and not the way that PSA CLEARLY states you should.

Anyone, who doesn't have your morales or rep could come up with the same yarn. (and secretly be an SGC employee to boot!)

I will admit Dan, that I sent a small box of cards to be graded in the exact manner you did and they never made it to PSA. Maybe an employee PSA or USPS, preyed upon me too but I have no way of knowing that. I did have insurance however and was re-embursed.

I have since submitted over 10 different invoices in the correct manner without incident.

All I am saying is it would be easy for anyone to claim the conditions you do and hold PSA's rep for ransom in the process.

As far as PSA is concerned, you are not being honest with yourself if you fail to realize the significant positive impact this company has had on the hobby.

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Posted By: dan mckee

The PSA impact on the hobby is not in question here. Where did that come from? If I hated them, I wouldn't be sending them cards? Are you reading the posts? No package was lost! Package was received and undamaged according to PSA. 5 million or $1 insurance would not be paid. The post office is completely out of this, they did their job and did it properly. PSA admits this by stating that any damaged package is immediately refused and the customer contacted. This boils down to their employees who answered newspaper ads to open boxes are not being watched or filmed as to what they are doing. I have other emails of the same situation yet Peter said "this has never happened, this can't happen, this doesn't happen" Well, it happened! And the post office has NOTHING to do with it! If the package was lost and never arrived, yes, I would eat it. But I work for the government and I have great faith in the postal system as long as an employee is not tempted by $$$$$$$.

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Posted By: MW

<< There is absolutely NO evidence that this card was ever sent to PSA. >>

Dan, can you post a copy of your receipt for the USPS signature confirmation service? If I'm not mistaken, the actual signature of the person who received the package can be accessed online.


<< Unless I am missing something, we have no responsibility in this situation - period. >>

I have reviewed PSA's written policy on this matter and have found three specific restrictions that seem to apply to shipping methods and this particular situation: (see PSA's "Shipping Instructions")

"PSA does not accept U.P.S. deliveries – no exceptions!"

All Federal Express Shipments must be sent to a specific address (PSA, 700 East Alton Avenue, Santa Ana, CA 92705)

"PSA shall have no liability to the customer for any loss or damage while the item is not in the custody or control of PSA if the customer selects their own carrier."


Under the "PSA Grading Terms and Procedures" section, I also see the following applicable statements:

"4) If PSA determines that the customer's card was lost or damaged while in PSA's possession, the customer will be compensated in accordance with PSA's standard procedures and not necessarily based upon the insured value the customer assigned to the card at the time of submission."

"8) It is absolutely essential that cards submitted to PSA be packaged and shipped strictly in accordance with the requirements of the PSA shipping instructions as are in effect from time to time. PSA disclaims any liability whatsoever for any damage to any card shipped or delivered to PSA in a non-conforming manner."


Based on Regulation #4 (above), it would seem that the insurance value, either stipulated on the package or on the submission form, would not be of primary importance in this (and other) cases. Instead, the most important factor would be determining if PSA actually had the item in its possession before it was allegedly lost. To that extent, I think the burden of liability can best be examined by comparing USPS regulations governing its signature confirmation service to safeguards established by PSA to protect the contents of incoming packages.

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Posted By: dan mckee

This is interesting, U.P.S. is not accepted at all, ok I guess they would have refused it and returned it to me, I should have used this carrier! I would still have my card. I will have a scan of the USPS signature confirmation up tonight, I can't do that from work right now. But it can only help so as soon as I get home, I will get that scanned and up. Thanks Dan.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Dan--Save your efforts. There is no way that you can definitively prove that the card was in the box. The only proof could be at their end and since the cameras were not on there is no possible proof. The system is set up so they are never at risk at that stage of the slabbing process on postal submissions. BTW, this is no different than if you sent cards to dealers, auction houses or fellow collectors. Now there's a pleasant thought!

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Posted By: dan mckee

You are correct Jay, how can a person prove they packed something and mailed it? It is quite impossible. This is a problem from all angles. Unfortunately, if I would have realized this as I do now, I would have never sent them any cards or anyone else any cards for that matter. I shipped these cards having faith in the poastal service and PSA, only 1 let me down. I will never submit another card again for grading to any company. I have learned a very expensive lesson and my efforts now will be to hurt them for at least $6000.00 Via articles, interviews, word of mouth, yo name it, I know and am respected by alot of people in this hobby and believe me they will all hear about this. Also what bothers really bothers me is the way I was treated from the first phone call to management, as if I was immediately wrong! The case was closed before it was open and I never had a chance.

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Posted By: jay behrens

This reminds me so much of problems I had with UPS in the 80s when over $100k worth of material magically disappeared from boxes being sent to me over a 2 month period and UPS treated me like dirt, saying that my clients should pack their stuff better, etc. and would not investigate any possible theft by their employees. I didn't want the insurance money and neithre did my clients. They wanted the items, several of which were one of kind game used items.

Hopefully I've done $100k worth damage to them in the past 15 years, but I doubt it. I do know that I will not ship anything with them ever again. I don't care if the company has changed or not. Pissed of customers have a very long memory

Jay

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Posted By: dan mckee

Objectively speaking, I have put myself in their shoes: I am the President of a fairly large company that provides a service. I receive a complaint from a customer, and this part shouldn't matter! A well respected customer who has been doing business in the hobby for 34 years that my company performs the service for. I would immediately identify that there is a problem, have that problem corrected so that this could never happen again, ask my customer what it would take to rectify this. None of this happened, What happened is that I am a liar and trying to scam them.

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Posted By: MW

Jay is quite right. The method of delivery is only as good as the process used to ship the item(s) and the handling abilities of the company or individual(s) receiving them. While it many be extremely difficult to determine liability here, I don't think there's any question that there was a breakdown in the system and that something needs to be fixed. No matter how meticulous and exacting the accounting principles are, there absolutely HAS to be some trust and faith involved on the part of the shipper. When no one is willing to take responsibility for an expensive, lost item, there is a clear breakdown in that trust and, absent corrective measures, the potential for future problems clearly exists.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

**To make matters worse, I am hearing that 1 of our publications wants no part of this story, which was going to be 1 of my only means of retaliation**

Dan, would you please post the name of the magazine or periodical so we can see who's afraid of losing some advertising $'s besides giving the small but well known hobby guy the chance of speaking?

Money talks...

Back in the old days, Lew Lipset crushed Krause/SCD every month in his newsletter.
He was vetoed by SCD, but hey... at least he was trying to be objective and became the voice of many back then.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Seems to me that Joe Orlando knows two things:

1-That you say that you had two submissions in a box that was sent to him

2-That his people say that there was only one

Now Joe, I would guess, doesn't know you from a hole in the ground. Although many of the people on this Board would vouch for your honesty that doesn't tell Joe that in fact there were two submissions. As long as Joe trusts his people, and if he doesn't they shouldn't be working there, what would you have him do? If I was in his situation I wouldn't offer a refund; I would think that there is a possibility that I was being scammed. Also, by offering a refund he would be indirectly impugning the honesty of his own people. I would, however, be more consoling and would probably offer a few free submissions or something else that might be perceived as a nice gesture. From his perspective he doesn't want you to go away mad, he just wants you to go away.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

is to sue them, to expose their system to a jury of laypeople and see what they think.

You CAN prove you shipped the card; it is called direct testimony. You can testify that you packed and shipped the item in the box. You have a scan of the card, you have the customer copy of the slip you used, and you have the receipt showing delivery of the package. You also have PSA's express statement of its policy of refusing to accept damaged packages. You also have delivery of the cards that were also in the package. You thus appear to have covered every aspect of custody of the card until it reached the hands of PSA. If you say the card was in the package and PSA says it was not, I think PSA has the burden of proving that the card was not in the package. Since PSA does not have security cameras or other safeguards like a casino or bank, it cannot rightfully claim that the card was not in the package. What it is doing to you now, unfortunately, is playing the 800# gorilla--as long as it refuses to compensate you, it forces you to take it on.

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Posted By: MW

<< the only alternative I see...is to sue them, to expose their system to a jury of laypeople and see what they think. >>

I agree. I also think that one of the key sub-issues would be the reliability and integrity of those employees who sign for and receive packages. If PSA's "system" has problems, I would think that they would want to avoid any lawsuit/trial that would expose these problems -- especially since they are a publicly owned company (CLCT) and that any such lawsuit might adversely affect both CU's stock price and ability to obtain the new line of credit it has been seeking. Remember, PSA has much more money and power than you do Dan, but they also have much more at stake.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

but I doubt this particular case will affect PSA's borrowing position, for their exposure is relatively small even if found liable (I seriously doubt, at least at this point, that any intentional tort can be proved that would implicate punitive damages).

Keep in mind, a lawsuit would enable Dan to take discovery into exactly what measures PSA has in place, as well as whether/how/why those measures may have changed over time. From a purely selfish standpoint, I for one would like to know what those measures are. Similarly, discovery would teach Dan, if not the rest of us, the nature and frequency of employee problems.

I agree with Warshawlaw and MW that a lawsuit may not be a bad idea, and I am hopeful that, however this turns out, PSA will take steps at its end to reduce the chances of it happening again.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Yes they do have more money than me, and some of mine. Do I have any takers for a case? I can pay some but this lost has crushed me! As I stated, I
work for the government. scans to follow.

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Posted By: dan mckee

This is my tracking slip and my hand written note with both submission numbers on it. If I was to fake all of this, I surely would have insured the package for $7500 to cover the T206's and the Magie.

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Posted By: MW

Shipment Details


You entered 2300 2730 0001 5405 8208

Your item was delivered at 7:53 am on May 22, 2003 in NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658 to PCGS PSA. The item was signed for by D SARBRICK.

Here is what happened earlier:
ARRIVAL AT UNIT, May 22, 2003, 7:38 am, NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92660
ENROUTE, May 21, 2003, 6:26 am, NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92660
ACCEPTANCE, May 19, 2003, 10:45 am, WINDSOR MILL, MD 21244

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Posted By: dan mckee

Correct! My emails to the gentleman who was to purchase this are dated May 14th, my scans of all 26 cards are dated May 17th. The submission number is non-existent on PSA's site. Trust me, having this package insured would have made NO difference to them, it is just the only thing they can try to see that was wrong with my submissions in their eyes.

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Posted By: MW

Dan,

Did you retain the gold copies of each submission form?

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Posted By: dan mckee

There are no gold copies, only white when you print from the internet site. Generic white form out of my $45 lexmark printer from adobe acrobat and I hand wrote my info on the forms, mailed them with the cards, and jotted the submission numbers down.

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Posted By: dan mckee

By the way, my 6 week submission that they received on May 22nd was delivered today! West coast to East coast means it was graded in 1 week! Hmmmm, that is strange! And the box is empty! I hope they filmed packing it and filmed taking it to the post office like I was expected to do. And by the way Peter of PSA, I did NOT write any card numbers down for the T206's as they do not have numbers as far as I am concerned. So 1 of your people filled in the numbers and another 1 of your people corrected the mistake that you thought I made! Many people obviously handle a submission and you obviously do not know what is going on there.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Adam--I'm no lawyer but what you state is not PROOF that Dan shipped the card. It describes a logical series of events but, to play devil's advocate, what if Dan never put the card in the box and is trying to defraud PSA by concocting this whole story. What proof would a court have that this was not the case?

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Posted By: julie

just can't be imagined! Over my dead body go any of my cards to PSA.

Just a note about "delivery confirmation." I sent Terry Knouse a $105 personal check at the end of April, priority mail, with a delivery confirmation sticker. Although I asked him several times, he never got around to telling me whether he got the envelope or not. The other day (about June 5), I ran into my "delivery confirmation" slip, and punched it up on USPS.com. My envelope was delivered on May 4, and signed for by "T. Knouse." Always nice to know.

Of course if he wanted to, Terry could always say the envelope was empty...

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Yes it is proof. His testimony that he placed the card in the package, insured it, and mailed it to the appropriate address is proof of those facts. Similarly, the testimony of the PSA employee who signed for the package (and presumably opened it) that the card wasn't there is proof. It then basically comes down to a matter of which testimony the jury finds more credibile. A real simple analogy is the intersectional car wreck case where there are no witnesses other than the participants who come forward, and each side says that they have the green light. The locations of the vehicles, skidmarks, etc. may be important, but those types of cases are very often won based on which of the two parties the jury thinks is telling the truth. It seems like a similar situation might exist here.

Maybe a suit is the answer. However, there are a few practical problems with what is essentially a coast-to-coast negligence lawsuit over $6,000. Depending on where it was filed, I suppose it might be an attorneys fee case since it involves loss of property. However, you take three depositions and you've eaten into that $6K a bunch, and you probably ain't gonna get all of those costs back even if you win. A long time ago, my senior partner told me that wars were fought over principle but lawsuits were fought over money. The possible recovery here, compared with the potential costs involved, may make a lawsuit problematic. However, if you decide to go that route, I hope you prevail. What happened stinks and it is a classic case of responsibility shirking. Why have cameras to allegedly prevent this type of thing if you aren't going to use them? That sort of smells.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Kenny--Again, I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that what you describe are assertions, not proof. Dan asserts that the card was in the box. PSA asserts that it wasn't. You can't have two legitimate proofs of contradictory events. I come from a mathematical background. In my world a proof establishes beyond any doubt that something is true.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Jay,

I was a chemistry major before I became a lawyer, so I had a fair amount of math background too. However, there are pretty substantial differences between the "hard" sciences and a civil lawsuit. In a civil case, at least one where allegations of fraud aren't involved, the plaintiff normally need only establish his claim by a preponderance of the evidence, i.e., that what he says happened is more probably true than not true. That's a far cry from a mathematical certainty. The closest thing the law has to the certainty requirement are criminal cases, where the standard is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. However, even there, some cases are simply swearing matches. If the jury believes that the complaining witness is telling the truth and the defendant is lying, you can get a conviction, despite the fact that two separate versions of "the truth" have been presented. When the facts are disputed, the jury gets to decide which version is right. They can decide that one side is right even if the Pope and every other religous leader of significance swears that the other side's story is the correct one. That's the way the system was designed, and that's the way it is supposed to work. It doesn't always, but it generally does. In that regard, you would be very surprised at how adept most juries are at spotting when they are getting fed a line of BS.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Jay, not sure what I have done to you but put yourself in my shoes once in awhile as well as in Joe's. I do not know you and you do not know me, maybe we should keep it that way. 1 thing to remember, I packed and shipped 1 package that day containing my own property that was very valuable to me. The PSA receiver opened hundreds of packages the day mine arrived and none of the contents of any of the packages were that person's property. Now who will remember what was in the package???????

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Dan--I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote. I believe you. I was just playing devil's advocate with what others had said and I think I indicated that. I just as easily could have inserted any name (instead of yours) in the example. The only point I was trying to make was that, as I have been taught to define "proof", there was no proof that you had sent the card. Do I think you sent the card--absolutely. Do I know with 100% certainty that you did-no.