Buying a Raw 1959 Topps Mickey Mantle, SGC "NO", & Dealer Responsibility

[Huck]

This is for the sellers/dealers on the board. If you knew, had a feeling, an inkling that the card was trimmed/modified in some fashion, would you reveal that information and price the card accordingly or just ignore the hunch and caveat emptor?

The argument that a dealer can't/doesn't look at every card borders on complete and utter kaka because before a dealer purchases a collection of cards and money exchanges hands the '59 Mantle is going to have a lookie-look. Based on a scan alone Exhibitman stated "clearly trimmed, top left, not a particularly deft job of it."

I agree that if you wanted a 5, you should have purchased a graded card. Best case, would be the dealer issues a credit and you purchase a card of higher value. Preferably, graded.....

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Huck

This is for the sellers/dealers on the board. If you knew, had a feeling, an inkling that the card was trimmed/modified in some fashion, would you reveal that information and price the card accordingly or just ignore the hunch and caveat emptor?

The argument that a dealer can't/doesn't look at every card borders on complete and utter kaka because before a dealer purchases a collection of cards and money exchanges hands the '59 Mantle is going to have a lookie-look. Based on a scan alone Exhibitman stated "clearly trimmed, top left, not a particularly deft job of it."

I agree that if you wanted a 5, you should have purchased a graded a card. Best case, would be the dealer issues a credit and you purchase a card of higher value. Preferably, graded.....

TBH: If I knew or had a good inkling the card was trimmed, I would sell it at about 10 percent of value as a card which had a major damage.

Here is one for you thought. I believe at one time PSA only graded the 48 Slate Bowman Basketball and the 49 Slate Bowman Baseball as AUthentic

Sold one many years to a friend of mine who got it graded and he was annoyed that it came back that way. Years later, I told him (and he told me his others were now all A as well) that as far as know the slate are mostly authentic. That's the flip side of this issue in my opinion

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

And how is the seller supposed to know that the card in question wasn't altered after it left his possession, or is even the same card?

This. And it is very important.

Buyer had chance to inspect card in person before purchasing. I’m sure many of us have been in this exact situation multiple times and you chalk it up to a learning experience.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Huck

This is for the sellers/dealers on the board. If you knew, had a feeling, an inkling that the card was trimmed/modified in some fashion, would you reveal that information and price the card accordingly or just ignore the hunch and caveat emptor?

The argument that a dealer can't/doesn't look at every card borders on complete and utter kaka because before a dealer purchases a collection of cards and money exchanges hands the '59 Mantle is going to have a lookie-look. Based on a scan alone Exhibitman stated "clearly trimmed, top left, not a particularly deft job of it."

I agree that if you wanted a 5, you should have purchased a graded card. Best case, would be the dealer issues a credit and you purchase a card of higher value. Preferably, graded.....

I am far from a dealer but have sold several cards on here over the last 10 or so years. Saying that I have clearly pointed out any alterations on every card I have sold on here or other places. I would hope everyone does but it isn't always the case.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by notfast

This. And it is very important.

Buyer had chance to inspect card in person before purchasing. I’m sure many of us have been in this exact situation multiple times and you chalk it up to a learning experience.

So, your scenario is a collector drops $700 on a raw '59 Mantle, and is hopeful that the card will grade a 5. The collector then alters the card before submitting to a TPG for grading. Uh, no. Collectors can be an odd bunch but not that farking odd.

Now, could the collector have submitted a different '59 Mantle for grading then the card purchased? Yes. I agree that it would be hard for the dealer to ascertain if the card was the same as the one previously sold. So, in this scenario, the collector has a '59 Mantle at home. Attends a show with the premediated intention of finding a '59 Mantle that will grade a 5 and drops $700 on a card in better condition then the card at home. Leaves the show, submits the card at home which is graded NO. At the next show brings the NO card in from home in hopes that the dealer will refund the $700. I am having a hard time boarding that crazy train.

There are bad apples in every group, but overall the collectors I have dealt with over the last 40 plus years have all been solid honest people. Mintacular (aka Minty) stated that the card was purchased at a local show. Perhaps, Minty has purchased cards from this dealer on a regular basis. Perhaps the dealer sees Minty as a walking ATM machine and looks forward to seeing Minty at the show. I don't get the feeling that the dealer stated "if that card doesn't grade a 5, I will refund your money". There was nothing implied. So, Minty is likely sol. That said, if the dealer appreciates Minty's business and knows Minty is a good customer, as I stated before perhaps something could be worked out but apparently not from two of the dealers who chimed in here.................

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

How did you arrive at the $x you will sell it for? Was it based on the prices of graded cards?

Maybe I think it looked of similar quality to what those of you who like to buy opinions would call a 6.

If that's the case, then it seems that I had a similar opinion of the card to that of the buyer.

Too bad a seller of opinions sold the buyer a different opinion.

But that has nothing to do with me.

[glchen]

My concerns here is that I remember a seller on ebay a few years back where basically he made his business to crack out nice looking Authentic cards and then sell them raw on ebay. I hope that in this case the dealer did not do the same thing and crack out a card that he knew was altered.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by glchen

My concerns here is that I remember a seller on ebay a few years back where basically he made his business to crack out nice looking Authentic cards and then sell them raw on ebay. I hope that in this case the dealer did not do the same thing and crack out a card that he knew was altered.

There are collectors who prefer raw cards but graded cards levels the playing field. In the raw world the price and grade is set by the dealer. Each of us grades differently. In the graded world, the TPG sets the grade and the market/comps sets the price range. I want to believe that an astute dealer adjusts the price of a card accordingly (well not on Ebay).

Years, ago I was at a show and asked a major dealer why the price of a PSA 7 card I wanted to purchase was carrying almost an 8 premium. The major dealer stated "if the card was broken out it would now grade a 7.5". I nodded and moved on and have never purchased a card from that dealer.

[Johnny630]

Grading has total control of this industry...love it or hate it...it can do three things, make people money, lose people money, and drive them to insanity.

It's something to watch. Eve if you don't grade it effects you in one way or another. It's tentacles have long reach.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by glchen

My concerns here is that I remember a seller on ebay a few years back where basically he made his business to crack out nice looking Authentic cards and then sell them raw on ebay. I hope that in this case the dealer did not do the same thing and crack out a card that he knew was altered.

There are more than several who do this. ebay or not. I know an old timer who buys and sells at shows and he finally shared his secret that he cracks out slabs and then prices at Beckett high,,, He does discount though...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Huck

So, your scenario is a collector drops $700 on a raw '59 Mantle, and is hopeful that the card will grade a 5. The collector then alters the card before submitting to a TPG for grading. Uh, no. Collectors can be an odd bunch but not that farking odd.

Now, could the collector have submitted a different '59 Mantle for grading then the card purchased? Yes. I agree that it would be hard for the dealer to ascertain if the card was the same as the one previously sold. So, in this scenario, the collector has a '59 Mantle at home. Attends a show with the premediated intention of finding a '59 Mantle that will grade a 5 and drops $700 on a card in better condition then the card at home. Leaves the show, submits the card at home which is graded NO. At the next show brings the NO card in from home in hopes that the dealer will refund the $700. I am having a hard time boarding that crazy train.

There are bad apples in every group, but overall the collectors I have dealt with over the last 40 plus years have all been solid honest people. Mintacular (aka Minty) stated that the card was purchased at a local show. Perhaps, Minty has purchased cards from this dealer on a regular basis. Perhaps the dealer sees Minty as a walking ATM machine and looks forward to seeing Minty at the show. I don't get the feeling that the dealer stated "if that card doesn't grade a 5, I will refund your money". There was nothing implied. So, Minty is likely sol. That said, if the dealer appreciates Minty's business and knows Minty is a good customer, as I stated before perhaps something could be worked out but apparently not from two of the dealers who chimed in here.................

I'm glad that as a seller you've never been scammed, lots of us have.

We back up everything we sell to the hilt, but if you want to take advantage of the guarantee we have to submit the card for you. We're not trying to screw over buyers, we're trying to protect ourselves.

[hcv123]

I agree with a number of opinions already offered here:

1) The price and how it was arrived at doesn't matter. When I am buying raw cards, a seller will not be able to get past the first sentence if they are trying to price "as if" it were graded. I am always paying significantly less for a raw card - there are just too many possible risks (even if it weren't altered) - grading company inconsistency at the top of the list. My response if the seller (on either side of the table) begins "well, a 6 sells for...." is I am not paying a graded price for a raw card. If you want to come back with it in a 6 holder, I'm happy to continue the conversation.

2) If I am buying a card valued over $100 raw, you can bet my ruler, my loupe and a common card from the same set are coming out and that card is going to get a thorough look. If a customer pulls out any or all of the above - not only is it a non-issue, I appreciate seeing it, because it tells me they are taking a lot of care to not write a similar story to this one. If I have a card that I know to be altered, I disclose it and price accordingly.


3) The above and some of the commentary in the thread hopefully will leave you forearmed in the future, but what is "right" in your current situation? As Ryan suggested, I think it is very reasonable for you to approach the dealer and explain the unfolding of events, asking (NOT expecting) if they are willing to do anything about the situation. As has been offered in numerous posts, they are under no obligation to do a thing. If they do offer something - you have to decide whether you prefer to keep the Mantle or take what they offer. If they are unwilling to do anything, write it off as an expensive learning experience and consider whether you want to do business with them in the future.

4) I buy and sell a lot of raw and graded cards. I do not check every single raw card I buy and sell. That said, I ABSOLUTELY check every single raw Mantle (and most cards valued at $100+) that I buy!

5) If you are having a difference of opinion in a conversation like "I think it will grade a ......" and you are willing to take the risk - you may ask for a guarantee of a numeric grade VS. a "No/A" grade. No dealer in their right mind is going to guarantee a specific grade, but some may be willing to guarantee a "number" grade without guaranteeing what the number is. (some may only be willing to do so if you allow them to send the card in - along the lines of the guarantee Scott offers). No have to's on either side- all negotiation.

Sorry you are in the situation. Best of luck with resolution.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I agree with a number of opinions already offered here:



1) The price and how it was arrived at doesn't matter. When I am buying raw cards, a seller will not be able to get past the first sentence if they are trying to price "as if" it were graded. I am always paying significantly less for a raw card - there are just too many possible risks (even if it weren't altered) - grading company inconsistency at the top of the list. My response if the seller (on either side of the table) begins "well, a 6 sells for...." is I am not paying a graded price for a raw card. If you want to come back with it in a 6 holder, I'm happy to continue the conversation.



2) If I am buying a card valued over $100 raw, you can bet my ruler, my loupe and a common card from the same set are coming out and that card is going to get a thorough look. If a customer pulls out any or all of the above - not only is it a non-issue, I appreciate seeing it, because it tells me they are taking a lot of care to not write a similar story to this one. If I have a card that I know to be altered, I disclose it and price accordingly.





3) The above and some of the commentary in the thread hopefully will leave you forearmed in the future, but what is "right" in your current situation? As Ryan suggested, I think it is very reasonable for you to approach the dealer and explain the unfolding of events, asking (NOT expecting) if they are willing to do anything about the situation. As has been offered in numerous posts, they are under no obligation to do a thing. If they do offer something - you have to decide whether you prefer to keep the Mantle or take what they offer. If they are unwilling to do anything, write it off as an expensive learning experience and consider whether you want to do business with them in the future.



4) I buy and sell a lot of raw and graded cards. I do not check every single raw card I buy and sell. That said, I ABSOLUTELY check every single raw Mantle (and most cards valued at $100+) that I buy!



5) If you are having a difference of opinion in a conversation like "I think it will grade a ......" and you are willing to take the risk - you may ask for a guarantee of a numeric grade VS. a "No/A" grade. No dealer in their right mind is going to guarantee a specific grade, but some may be willing to guarantee a "number" grade without guaranteeing what the number is. (some may only be willing to do so if you allow them to send the card in - along the lines of the guarantee Scott offers). No have to's on either side- all negotiation.



Sorry you are in the situation. Best of luck with resolution.

Howard, I appreciate your comments, that was well said.

I've bought 100 cards from you and hope to buy 100 more. Thank goodness all dealers are not as straightforward and trustworthy as you, I would be broke by now.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[jayshum]

To the OP, do you have the card back in hand yet? If so, have you measured it or compared it to other cards from the 1959 Topps set to determine if it is off size?