Applying today's societal lens against the HOFers of yesterday

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

This thread needs a card.



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[Dewey]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

This thread needs a card.

Agreed. And a photo.

[drcy]

The problem with judging people 100 or 150 years ago by today's standards is that people today are also pretty stupid and myopic and will be similarly judged by standards 100 and 150 years in the future. Or, as I.F. Stone said, "Each generation sets its own blinkers then claims its vision is unimpeded." Just one error of a know-it-all is that that he claims to know it all.

Expecting, or even wanting, others to be perfect in all ways is a sign of intellectual and emotional immaturity-- and almost assuredly hypocrisy. The vocally morally sanctimonious are nearly always applying standards to others that they aren't applying to themselves. In fact, being sanctimonious and expecting others (but not oneself) to be perfect are psychological conditions if not fronts. Forget others' faults and go see a therapist.

Duly note that many historical figures retain their interest, and collectibility, because they are complex, dichotomous figures: Ty Cobb, Patton, Nixon, Johnny Cash, William T. Sherman, Billy Holiday. Joe Jackson material wouldn't be as valuable as it is today if he weren't associated with the World Series scandal. Al Capone, Jesse James and Bonnie & Clyde are collected and hold interest entirely because they were outlaws.

I've long found it interesting that qualities that make living people social lepers make them appealing as long dead historical figures. I mean, when you read about them, you realize that some of the Western outlaws and Prohibition-era gangsters were essentially serial killers.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by drcy

The problem with judging people 100 or 150 years ago by today's standards is that people today are also pretty stupid and myopic and will be similarly judged by standards 100 and 150 years in the future. Or, as I.F. Stone said, "Each generation sets its own blinkers then claims its vision is unimpeded." Just one error of a know-it-all is that that he claims to know it all.

Expecting, or even wanting, others to be perfect in all ways is a sign of intellectual and emotional immaturity-- and almost assuredly hypocrisy. The vocally morally sanctimonious are nearly always applying standards to others that they aren't applying to themselves. In fact, being sanctimonious and expecting others (but not oneself) to be perfect are psychological conditions if not fronts. Forget others' faults and go see a therapist.

Duly note that many historical figures retain their interest, and collectibility, because they are complex, dichotomous figures: Ty Cobb, Patton, Nixon, Johnny Cash, William T. Sherman, Billy Holiday. Joe Jackson material wouldn't be as valuable as it is today if he weren't associated with the World Series scandal. Al Capone, Jesse James and Bonnie & Clyde are collected and hold interest entirely because they were outlaws.

I've long found it interesting that qualities that make living people social lepers make them appealing as long dead historical figures. I mean, when you read about them, you realize that some of the Western outlaws and Prohibition-era were essentially serial killers.

+1,000,000. We always fancy ourselves as advanced and on the "right side of history." Then generations pass! We really are an arrogant people!

[GaryPassamonte]

+ 1,000,001

[Klrdds]

Cobb is as very complex an individual in death as he was in life perhaps even more so in death . I will only add this ...as much as he's been vilified since his death as a racist and violent person let us not forget everything he did for his hometown of Royston ,GA which was during his life and even now is nothing but a spit in the road , a dot on a map . Check what he did for that town in his post baseball life and after his death by bequests in his will and you will find a town that is very indebted to him and values him for the benefactor he was to all people in that area. He also set up scholarships for kids also .
Cobb was a very violent product of the times and his family life - an exception to the norm of the times, but he tried to make up for it somehow during his final years .

[George]

People who think Ty Cobb was a racist should read "Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty," by Charles Leerhsen. This long overdue book tells the true story of the hatchet job perpetrated on Cobb by his earlier "biographer," Al Stump.

[sphere and ash]

I haven’t read the recent revisionist biography of Cobb, but I will. I’ve always suspected there was a story waiting to be revealed about this man, Alexander George Washington Rivers, who served as Cobb’s assistant for 18 years and who named his son Ty Cobb Rivers. This photo was used in 1927.

[Jim65]

All these people that want statues torn down and street names changed apparently do not have a problem with having streets named after Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X, they should at least be consistent even if they are wrong.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Mark

It was my impression that Anson's behavior had already tarnished his image at least a little among collectors.

ever own an anson item. i have even sold all of my cobb items except the Punch card that i need for my set... that is just my preference

[aljurgela]

... so here is my Pete Hill Punch...

I also can recommend a recent documentary on his life... whereby they try to find with baseball's "Black Cobb" was buried... I think that I found it on Netflix, but cannot recall

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/thro...entary-chicago

[Throttlesteer]

Wow, that's a sweet card.

[drcy]

I have read neither book, but Cobb had a bad personality reputation from his contemporaries. Perhaps he mellowed with age, and I know nothing about the supposed racism angle, but his bad attitude reputation wasn't something made up after the fact, and certainly not by a single book.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by drcy

I have read neither book, but Cobb had a bad personality reputation from his contemporaries. Perhaps he mellowed with age, and I know nothing about the supposed racism angle, but his bad attitude reputation wasn't something made up after the fact, and certainly not by a single book.

I’m not quite sure what your point is.

But yes, I think most men would have had a “bad personality” had they endured the tragedy and hazing Cobb dealt with. He also did mellow with age, even lobbying for Sam Crawford’s HOF admission, despite the latter’s tormenting of Cobb as a rookie.

[bbcard1]

There is a description that is creeping into our lexicon...he was a man of his time...which generally is used in a weird condescending way where the speaker owns a superiority over the subject. I would like to say I am sure I would not have been one of the people yelling "Crucify Him!" at Jesus Christ. But I'm not that sure.

Anyhow, we will never make any real progress in equality until we cease to define ourselves by our differences...a white guy, a fat woman, a gay barber, etc. We don't do that. We instead celebrate and compensate for our difference.

Wow, got me OT there.

I don't think only a handful of "heroes" of days gone (Matthewson and Johnson come to mind) by could have escaped the scrutiny of the press today. Can you image the stories that would have been generated by Ruth, Cobb, Mantle?

[CMIZ5290]

Ty Cobb had may demons, but he was incredibly generous with his friends. He took care of Mickey Cochrane (HOFer) and many others.... He was also generous with funds that he left for the community....

[topcat61]

In my humble opinion -A fair argument cannot be made to judge a person (or ball player) from another era based on the standards we've set for today.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by topcat61

In my humble opinion -A fair argument cannot be made to judge a person (or ball player) from another era based on the standards we've set for today.

+1

[drcy]

Even if someone today tried their hardest to abide by the stand the standards of 100 years from now, he can only guess (and likely wrongly) what they will be.

[KMayUSA6060]

Anson once tweeted some racist garbage.

Mantle had less-than-respectful tweets about women.

I'm sure one of the other old-timers had homophobic tweets.


Wait, am I mixing too many eras?


History is not to be erased, but to be learned from.