Value of T206 E.Collins??

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

I put them at 2 different levels because anyone who understands the game of baseball knows that Speaker is an elite of the elite player and Lajoie is only an elite player. Compare their stats (the ones that aren't worthless like avg, rbi and runs) and Speaker is on another level.


btw, you ignored the slash line that showed Hornsby as top ten or so in all three and Lajoie only near the top in the fairly worthless batting avg stat.

Speaker has a career 157 wRC+ (that is weighted runs created, that looks at the type of hits they got park and league adjusted and is probably the best "single number" hitting stat out there as far as judging individual production is concerned.) Lajoie has a 144. Speaker was 57% better hitter than average in his career for nearly 12,000 plate appearances, that's impressive stuff. (good enough for a tie for 12th all time just in hitting tied with McGwire and Johnny Mize) over 22 seasons! (hence the 130+ WAR) Lajoie is tied or 43rd all time over 21 seasons (also amazingly impressive)

but seriously tho, Speaker is in another tier.


time to learn the new metrics, evolve as the game evolves. It's not hard to understand or "made up" nor does it have anything to do with fantasy baseball as so many people say. it's just the science evolving and using the data in a more accurate way. It's just statistics, why so much hatred and anger about them?

you either evolve with the game or you end up being left behind. the choice is up to you. learning is fun!

So....Based on this, Speaker and Johnny Mize are comparable in your data??

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

So....Based on this, Speaker and Johnny Mize are comparable in your data??

only as hitters, and only when compared as just hitters.

Speaker maintained that level for nearly 1000 more games and 3800 more plate appearances, and played the OF rather than 1b like Mize (which gives his defensive value more of an edge. Not to mention Speaker was an elite baserunner and Mize was a below avg one.

for the first 9 years of his career Mize was an elite hitter, his last 5 seasons brought him down a good bit. (whereas Speaker had 18 years of elite hitting, which is pretty damn amazing)

Speaker was a great player for 18 years, an above avg player for 3 and an avg player for one. Mize was an elite player for 9 years an above avg player for 1 and an avg player for 4 years.


The reason their total WAR is so much different (130.6 for Speaker vs 68.6 for Mize )comes down to longevity, quality of production over time , base running and defense (tho speaker doesn't have elite defensive numbers, but by playing a harder position he gets a little more credit versus playing 1b which is the easiest position defensively after DH (which didn't exist then))


ETA: to sum up, if two guys had about equal bats but one guy did it for 19 years and the other for 9 I think you'd value the length of the production more (which is why Speaker is an elite player, production + longevity of said production)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

I put them at 2 different levels because anyone who understands the game of baseball knows that Speaker is an elite of the elite player and Lajoie is only an elite player. Compare their stats (the ones that aren't worthless like avg, rbi and runs) and Speaker is on another level.


btw, you ignored the slash line that showed Hornsby as top ten or so in all three and Lajoie only near the top in the fairly worthless batting avg stat.

Speaker has a career 157 wRC+ (that is weighted runs created, that looks at the type of hits they got park and league adjusted and is probably the best "single number" hitting stat out there as far as judging individual production is concerned.) Lajoie has a 144. Speaker was 57% better hitter than average in his career for nearly 12,000 plate appearances, that's impressive stuff. (good enough for a tie for 12th all time just in hitting tied with McGwire and Johnny Mize) over 22 seasons! (hence the 130+ WAR) Lajoie is tied or 43rd all time over 21 seasons (also amazingly impressive)

but seriously tho, Speaker is in another tier.


time to learn the new metrics, evolve as the game evolves. It's not hard to understand or "made up" nor does it have anything to do with fantasy baseball as so many people say. it's just the science evolving and using the data in a more accurate way. It's just statistics, why so much hatred and anger about them?

you either evolve with the game or you end up being left behind. the choice is up to you. learning is fun!

Agree with Kevin. This post is exactly what is wrong with WAR. Ave, RBI and Runs Scored are 3 of the most important stats. By ignoring them, you are not evolving, you are devolving. The goal of the game is to score runs. The team that does, wins the game, not the one who gets the most walks, baserunners, etc. WAR doesn't care about what wins games, but greatly over values a truly worthless stat, walks. It is also pretty much ignores half of the equation, run prevention. And maybe one day they will truly adjust for park, instead of just claiming they do.

We all understand that raw RBI and runs numbers are flawed, but rather than throw them away and just use fantasy stats, you should look at how players perform when given the opportunity to score runs. Who cares about a guy who walks with RISP and leads to another goose egg? What is truly valuable is the guy who gets a hit and drives in runs.

WAR is not science, it is made up (by people who I wonder if they ever watch the game). It will be time to use new metrics when they actually reflect what they are supposed to. Insulting those who observe that the emperor has no clothes is never going to evolve the way we look at stats.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by rats60

Agree with Kevin. This post is exactly what is wrong with WAR. Ave, RBI and Runs Scored are 3 of the most important stats. By ignoring them, you are not evolving, you are devolving. The goal of the game is to score runs. The team that does, wins the game, not the one who gets the most walks, baserunners, etc. WAR doesn't care about what wins games, but greatly over values a truly worthless stat, walks. It is also pretty much ignores half of the equation, run prevention. And maybe one day they will truly adjust for park, instead of just claiming they do.

We all understand that raw RBI and runs numbers are flawed, but rather than throw them away and just use fantasy stats, you should look at how players perform when given the opportunity to score runs. Who cares about a guy who walks with RISP and leads to another goose egg? What is truly valuable is the guy who gets a hit and drives in runs.
.

it isn't made up, it is based on things that are actually to the credit of the individual player. runs and rbi's are determined by the quality of the surrounding players and thus have no bearing on individual production.

I only replied to an insult ,sir. You flat earthers can't yell at us and say 'stupid stats, yer stupid...blah blah blah" and expect to not be belittled in return. If you don't understand something maybe instead of hand waving it away like a child you could go and read about it . (btw I love how ALL THE OTHER EFFING DATA, I posted was ignored and instead I get the tired old anti-WAR argument. )

WAR is not science, it is made up (by people who I wonder if they ever watch the game). It will be time to use new metrics when they actually reflect what they are supposed to. Insulting those who observe that the emperor has no clothes is never going to evolve the way we look at stats

its' based on far superior stats and it applies to everyone equally, so even if there are small quibbles with it (and it isn't perfect, but neither are any other stats) the quibbles provide a ratio of performance that, magically, seems to agree on who the greatest players are.


I bet you don't even know what WAR is, how it is calculated or how to figure it out! You just get mad because it's new and you don't like change and refuse to stop believing in the flat earth of batting avg, pitcher wins and RBI'S. well, maybe instead od throwing a tantrum and putting your hands over your ears you could do a little reading.


P.S. none of these modern metrics have anything to do with fantasy baseball.zero, zilch nada. they have to do with doing the work to determine what is ACTUALLY important and not what people just assumed was important. your appeal to tradition fallacy is not an argument

[swarmee]

Maybe the WAR discussion can be moved to the Off-Topic zone, because which deadball era player scores highest in modern metrics does not affect their baseball card PRICES/demand at all. Just because a guy was better than another does not mean that his card's prices follow suit.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

it isn't made up, it is based on things that are actually to the credit of the individual player. runs and rbi's are determined by the quality of the surrounding players and thus have no bearing on individual production.

I only replied to an insult ,sir. You flat earthers can't yell at us and say 'stupid stats, yer stupid...blah blah blah" and expect to not be belittled in return. If you don't understand something maybe instead of hand waving it away like a child you could go and read about it . (btw I love how ALL THE OTHER EFFING DATA, I posted was ignored and instead I get the tired old anti-WAR argument. )

That is absolutely false. RBI are determined by how well you perform in scoring opportunities. If you are Barry Bonds in the postseason, then you only drive in 3 runs in 20 games, despite having plenty of opportunities, it is because you hit .191. Let's just ignore what actually happens and create a theoretical system to apply to everyone. You can't do that, baseball isn't even played on a uniform field and these metrics pretty much ignore that.

These are fantasy stats, because they choose to completely ignore or seriously undervalue important parts of the game. It's funny that you use the term flat earth because that is exactly what I think people using WAR, OPS+, etc. are. It is like we are in the Dark Ages and the Catholic Church is telling us what to believe, ignoring the science of previous generations like the Greeks. Maybe one day people who understand baseball and mathematics will fix this and give credibility to WAR.