Possible newly discovered T205 variation

[lentel]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Dan and all,
The Gray with stats comes with only two backs...Piedmont Fact. 25 and Sovereign.
The Gray without stats comes Honest Long Cut, Polar Bear, and all three Sweet Cap. backs.

The Moran with stray line is found with Polar Bear only.
The Moran without stray line is found with American Beauty Black, Cycle, Drum, Honest Long Cut, Piedmont Fact. 25, Polar Bear, Sovereign, and Sweet Cap Red.

I can say that the Moran with stray line is more infrequent than that of the Gray w/ stats.

I also feel that the Moran was an error that was fixed and that Gray w/ stats was included in two later print runs.

Hopefully this answered Dan's question.

BTW...Gray no stats Piedmont is one of my mystery cards. I feel it should exist but it just does not. Strange.

Joshua

PS These lists my be incomplete as I am working off my paper list at home and not the computer one at work.

Josh my moran with stray line has a piedmont back

[martin neal]

Hi Josh,

Here's a scan of a Moran I used to own.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Since this was brought back up, I have a question to pose to all that think that any of the variations that show up only on one specific back.

Please explain your argument as to why these should be stand out variations with no correction to the back and why every back variation should not be listed.

The argument I see from you folks is that if an error was made on back, (Matty 37-1, only verified Cycle) than that justifies it being listed. But the matty with Piedmont has correct text with a Piedmont ad variation, why is this not listed? The Matty Sweet Cap has correct text but different than Cycle and Piedmont, thus a variation. This goes on with all different ad backs.

I think we all want continuity in the listing and by adding variation with errors specific to one back is doing an injustice to not listing each ad back variation for a card.

The Demmit and O'hara seem to be your only argument, to me it also could be list as Polar Bear backs but it sure is easier to make them St. louis vartiations because people tens to read the front much more and more easily identified.

Will the believers please answer the question, without using the Demmitt O'Hare as an example. Just because something is written it doesn't always make it right and sometimes through time evidience is found to change things. Bob lemke is constantly updating the SCD with new evidence (The Matty Cycle has always been known, just not so publically noticed with the 37-1 back).


Please explain your argument as to why these should be stand out variations with no correction to the back and why every back variation should not be listed.

I really want to hear a good explaination on my question,

Lee

[Matt]

Lee - the established criterion for T-card variations is a variation in the text that is player specific.

As the Ads are through the whole set and not player specific, they certainly count towards a "true master set" which comprises every front/back possibility, but not to what collectors call a "master set" which doesn't count ad-back variations and only uses the criterion I explained above.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I get it, now. When looking to get a master set for everyone to collect you ignore the ad back as a variation (they don't count) but pay attention to any errors to the card.

Lee

[marcdelpercio]

Lee,
I will reiterate what I posted on the other thread related to this topic. I think the bottom line is that, when these cards were printed, the front design and the back text were intended to be identical regardless of the advertisement. There are really only two conceivable ways that a person can collect a "complete" T205 set:

1. A true master set which would include every possible front/back combination of every card. We may never even have a checklist of such a set, and certainly never anything approaching an actual complete set.

2. A set of all front/back DESIGNS regardless of advertisement. This is the method of the vast majority of set collectors and thus the way these sets are nearly always checklisted. A variation in design, by definition, would be any difference in the text or artwork of the card.

Either way, both of these cards must be listed separately. If you feel that option number one is correct, the text variation is incidental and irrelevant. If you feel that option number two is correct, the ad is incidental and irrelevant. However, there can be no definition of a "complete set" that does not list these cards separately, either by design variation or by ad variation.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

By eliminating the ad as a variation to the set then the "only complete set" should be of all the front variations. By picking out parts of the back variations to be a "complete set" shows no continuity to your definition of a "complete set"

By the Way, Thanks for the responses, just trying to understand

Lee

[marcdelpercio]

My definition of a complete set is a card featuring every design that was printed, regardless of the advertisement. The design (meaning artwork and text) of the card was intended to be identical regardless of the ad back. The text on the back of the Doc White card was not intended to change in any way based on the ad brand. However, some Doc White cards were printed without quotation marks in the text. To me, this constitutes a different design and therefore a variation. I couldn't care less how many different ad brands appear with this variation because I do not consider the ad brand when checklisting my set. I only consider the design of the card.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

If i get your theory correct than the fact that Demmit and O'Hara should not have been changed even though they actually changed teams?

I see that you are under the thinking of their needs to be text variations in order to be a cataloged variation and that an ad back variation is insignificant.

To try to simplify, your complete set is with text variations (technically an ad back is a text variation, but for the sake of this discuss they will be ad variations) and all other variations are not included?

Lee

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I will re word my question about the Demitt/O'Hara, how they fit into your theory?

Lee

[marcdelpercio]

I'm not sure that I understand your question regarding the Demmitt and O'Hara. These cards feature a variation in the design (i.e. the team change). The fact that this variation only appears with the Polar Bear back is irrelevant to me. If the Demmitt and O'Hara (St. Louis) cards also appeared with...say, a Piedmont back as well, I would checklist these as the same card as the design is the same.

I do not consider the different ads to be a "text variation" as those were intended to be interchangeable amongst all copies of the card. When the Doc White card was designed, the front artwork and back text and stats were intended to be unchanged, regardless of the ad. I consider the version of this card without quotation marks to be a different design.

[Eggoman]

Originally Posted by asoriano

Hi Marc,

I can tell you two of the three:

Edward Barger: No parenthesis around "Cy" in first line of bio (I've only seen it on the Partial "B" variation, not the Full "B")

"Germany" Schaefer: no quotes around Germany

I have been looking for these 2 back variations to include in my own "Master Set" - (whatever THAT means!)

Although my search has admittedly NOT been exhaustive, I have NOT seen these variations either... Are they specific to a particular brand of cigarettes???

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Eggoman

I have been looking for these 2 back variations to include in my own "Master Set" - (whatever THAT means!)

Although my search has admittedly NOT been exhaustive, I have NOT seen these variations either... Are they specific to a particular brand of cigarettes???

Sounds like scrubbing with a good eraser might net you the variations. (j/k)...Good luck in the hunt. As we always say, the hunt is a lot of the fun.

[marcdelpercio]

I have never seen either of these variations either, and I have been searching pretty intensively since they were first mentioned several years ago. Maybe Leon's eraser suggestion is the best way to go

[Eggoman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Sounds like scrubbing with a good eraser might net you the variations. (j/k)...Good luck in the hunt. As we always say, the hunt is a lot of the fun.

Thanks, Leon!

One can always count on you as the Voice of Reason!!!

[Eggoman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Sounds like scrubbing with a good eraser might net you the variations. (j/k)...Good luck in the hunt. As we always say, the hunt is a lot of the fun.

Thanks, Leon!

One can always count on you as the Voice of Reason!!!