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#101
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Aaron
Hey, Troy: |
#102
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I would respectfully request that Robert Plancich and his attorney take the last two spots. He has the most at stake here. Agreed? |
#103
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Aaron
Jay: |
#104
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: jay behrens
I hope SCDA has them under contract so they cannot pull a stunt like that. It might also fall under a no compete clause if they have any contract at all. |
#105
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Aaron
My last message of the night: |
#106
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Troy R. Kinunen
SCDA has taken the stance that our authenticators are still allowed to buy and sell. When selling, they can issue their own letter of authenticity. No letter from SCDA will be issued by our authenticators. |
#107
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Aaron
Jay: You would think so, but it appears Troy (and his SCDA authenticators) came up with that specific language specifically so they could get around the ethics guidelines through that very loophole. Note that Troy does not say that SCDA authenticators may not sell items that they authenticated. |
#108
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Troy R. Kinunen
Where are the loopholes? |
#109
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: jay behrens
Troy, I hope you see the serious ethical problems with allowing your authenticators to buy, sell and issue their own LOAs outside of SCDA. Your authenticators need to be held to the absolute highest standard. This means that they have to have no appearance of impropriety or conflict of interest. |
#110
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: jay behrens
Troy, you don't think it's a problem that Bushing writes a LOA on an item, then MAstro decides to get SCDA to verify? Who at SCDA is going to dare say that something one of their authenticators isn't what it's claimed to be? It would professional suicide within the company to challenge Bushing or another top authenticator. |
#111
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: MW
If David Bushing is going to now reveal his ownership of all items he has consigned and perhaps authenticated himself then doesn't it stand to reason that he should also reveal how many (and which) previously consigned auction items fit into this same category? |
#112
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Troy R. Kinunen
Dave has never had a problem disclosing what items he owns. If you have a question on a specific item, please ask. Now that a policy of addressing these items has been put in place, I suggest the following: |
#113
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: jay behrens
It's a step in the right direction. As long as someone other than the authenticator has authenticated the item, there shouldn't be much problem. It's when the authenticator authenticates his own item, that is where problem lies. These people should never sell an item that they have authenticated. It just doesn't look good no matter what the circumstance may be. |
#114
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: davidcycleback
Some of my thoughts on LOAs. |
#115
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: jay behrens
David, a very valid point about owner's writing LOAs. The difference in your scenario is that there isn't any other way to really do that LOA. In the case of something like the DiMaggio bat, the authenticator has everything to gain from saying it's a streak bat, but he is not the only person capable of making this determination. |
#116
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: J Levine
I personally do not collect game-used or autographs for the reasons listed above but one thing does trouble me a little. A lot of collectors are slamming Bushing, et.al. (and in my opinion rightfully so) for doing what many of us do practically everyday...I have bought items (read as vintage cards) and authenticated them myself, and then sold them on ebay giving them my personal guarantee of authenticity and originality. Not once asking for a second opinion, confident in the knowledge that I have acquired over the years (just as I am sure Bushing et. al. think). I think that Bushing and some of the other game used authenticators have crossed an ethical line by non-disclosure of ownership and instead of just admitting mistakes and trying to correct them they have tried to cover their collectives butts. |
#117
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: jay behrens
Joshua, good point. But there is a huge difference between us "authenticating" cards and Bushing, et al authetincating bats, etc, especially when making claims as to a particular item being used at a particular time. There's a huge difference in price between a DiMaggio gamer and one used during The Streak. You just don't look at a bat, look it over and say this is a Streak bat. And we all know money will make people do stupid or unethical things. |
#118
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Joe P.
Build Me a Horse! |
#119
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Troy, here's a very simple way to end this controversy (and more importantly, convince yourself that going forward you'll be able to make as much money as before Bushing's dishonest business practice was revealed): |
#120
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: PASJD
Instead of the new disclosure policy with all the fine print, why don't the major auction houses simply decline to sell items in which their authenticators have a financial interest? How hard is that? If the authenticators want to sell items from their personal collections, fine, let them do it on ebay under their own names, and let their LOA's reflect the fact of the direct sale so that future purchasers are not deceived. While fuller disclosure is commendable, it seems to me it still does not avoid the appearance of impropriety and incestuous relationships. There are some things that even disclosure does not cure and are best avoided in the first instance. Is the problem that too large a percentage of the memorabilia out there is in fact owned by the authenticators themselves? |
#121
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Take a look at the stuff Bushing is selling on ebay. He sells stuff which he claims to be 'game used' (even though a Dale Murphy bat is described as having 'no real game wear.') What a laugher! He'll continue to work his money printing press (oops, I mean provide his LOA) and the suckers keep coming! Dave, I'm sure it felt good to watch that Dimag bat sell ... but do you have any integrity at all? |
#122
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: warshawlaw
But I have no interest in going to Wisconsin in the dead of winter to review materials that I will obtain via subpoena or otherwise shortly. Since SCDA has no problem making these materials available to several collectors free of charge, Instead of my attending, I would request that SCDA make the materials available to a bonded copy service representative I will ask to attend the meeting. |
#123
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: PASJD
Of course they get the point. They choose not to act on it, because the same people doing the authenticating apparently also own what may well be a signficant percentage of the memorabilia in the marketplace. Perhaps that is inevitable, as there may not be enough money in "just" authenticating to earn a living (as there is in cards due to volume). So what you will see are some incremental, fine print disclosures, and perhaps that is the best one can hope for. It's better than one can hope for on the card front; I SERIOUSLY doubt (although I hope I am wrong) that Mastro is going to fully disclose from now on the extent to which each card in his auctions has "received services from" (I am loathe to use the loaded "restored" word) his "outside conservator." |
#124
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Jerry Ficchi
Last year I purchased a DiMaggio used coach’s bat from a Slater’s Auction which came with a Bushing/Knoll letter of authenticity. The letter states the bat is 35 inches. At the last Fort Washington show, I brought the bat to Troy and Dave and paid SCDA in order to receive a better/prettier/more comprehensive letter. When I received said letter, much to my surprise, the bat had miraculously turned into a 34.5-inch "team" bat as DiMaggio had never ordered that size. |
#125
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Ahh...Bushing and SCDA...what a perfect team! It's like a tag-team match in professional wrestling. Now if only you had asked Bushing if the bat was a real Dimiggio used coach's bat instead of simply accepting his word, you might have been steered in the right direction. Your bad! |
#126
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Billy
"But I have no interest in going to Wisconsin in the dead of winter to review materials that I will obtain via subpoena or otherwise shortly." |
#127
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: davidcycleback
On an interesting side note, I knew a guy who got a job working for the Beckett baseball price guide. Part of his job was gathering prices from dealers and such, calculating prices and such. He was just a regular worker and no big wig. He told me that Beckett forbade him buying and selling baseball cards, at least on a regular basis. I don't think it was against house rules to buy a Mickey Mantle for his nephew's birthday or perhaps even for himself once in a while, but he couldn't deal. When he got the job, he sold of a lot of his collection because he knew he couldn't sell them while working there. He did keep a few cards as part of his personal collection. |
#128
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: mcavoy
I believe a difference is evident when a certificate is issued by SCDA versus Mr. Bushing (or anyone else). SCDA, presumably, wants a viable business and high reputation yesterday, today and in the future, so the corporation retains value. Coin World holding company owns ANACS, and authenticator and grader of coins, so publishers in the collectibles businesses seem to spread their fingers into many pies. But the second any doubt about the qualifications of Mr. Bushing, any SCDA certificate signed by him is suspect. I think SCDA would want to rethink permitting Mr. Bushing from selling his items with his certificate, since his potential poor reputation could bring potential suspicion to SCDA certificates bearing his signature. |
#129
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Interesting. An enitre day has passed after I made a suggestion that all SCDA/Bushing authenticated materials be permitted to be returned for a refund. Troy, I can hear the crickets chirping..... |
#130
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: PASJD
I am curious, do the Grey Flannel bat authentication guys (Malta and Taube) also sell their own bats through the major auction houses or do they subscribe to different rules than Mr. Bushing? |
#131
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Interesting question. I'll call them tomorrow and find out. Could it be possible that they have Bushing's Disease also? |
#132
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Anonymous
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#133
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Jerry Ficchi
Unfortunately, Slaters Auctions was purchased by Heritage Auctions and they won’t honor previous letters. |
#134
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: J Levine
Adam could probably let you know better than I but if Heritage bought the other auction house, don't they take on the liability as well...depending on the contract of the sale, they may have to honor the other's letters, debts, guarentees, etc. |
#135
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: leon
I am no business acquisition expert but do know that the way a company is bought has a lot to do with what the past liabilites will be. If a company buys the stock of another, instead of just the assets, then they are probably liable. I know when I bought some companies last year I only bought the assets, not the stock, so was not liable for the other company's liabilities. It might change with what state you're in too. So in answer to your question it's hard to say if they bought the liablities without knowing the way the deal was structured.....best regards |
#136
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Joe P.
All past liabilities be Stabilized! |
#137
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Anonymous
Interestingly enough, page 6 of the latest SCD - The Inside Pitch column, "Authenticating the Authenticators." |
#138
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: davidcycleback
It would take a flaming dumb ass to accept a $15 examination fee so he could accept total financial liability for a $50,000 piece of memorabilia. |
#139
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Joe P.
Bushing? |
#140
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Over 13 years ago since the last post of this thread. What ever came of all this?
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#141
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When the centerbrand says “Made By” instead of the players initials (TC, in this instance), it is a Professional Model Bat. The initials within the centerbrand would indicate a store model Bat. The professional models were typically Hand turned and featured better wood, finer grain, etc.
Here’s an example that recently closed with authentication from Taube and Mears... http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.co...LOT122182.aspx |
#142
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Joe P. is missed.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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