How to put the Forgers Out of Business Quickly

[drc]

I'm not an autograph expert, but it's similar in baseball cards. The bad counterfeits are bought buy the beginning collectors who know nothing. The problem being that you want the beginners entering as it expands the hobby, and you don't want them being turned off and leaving after buying fakes.

But some (not all) beginners are oblivious to their ignorance, assume they know all they need to know, and wouldn't take sage advice if you gave it to them.

I'm an art historian by trade and in a different collecting guides I included this same all-purpose list of basic collecting tips for beginning buyers.



"Whether it involves celebrity autographs, movie posters, fine art prints, baseball cards, postcards or antique figurines, collecting can be good clean fun for boys and girls of all ages. However, all areas of collecting have fakes, reprints and scams.

The following is a brief but important list of tips that the beginner should read before jumping into the hobby with open pocketbook.

1) Start by knowing that there are reprints, counterfeits, fakes and scams out there. If you start by knowing you should be doing your homework, having healthy skepticism of sellers’ grand claims and getting second opinions, you will be infinitely better off than the beginner who assumes everything’s authentic and all sellers are honest.

2) Learn all you can about material you wish to collect and the hobby in general. The more you learn and more experience you have, the better off you are. Most forgers aren’t trying to fool experts. They’re trying to fool the ignorant.

3) Realize that novices in any area of collecting are more likely to overestimate, rather than underestimate, the value of items they own or are about to buy.

4) Get second opinions and seek advice when needed. This can range from a formal opinion from a top expert to input from a collecting friend. Collectors who seek advice and input are almost always better off than those who are too proud or embarrassed to ask questions.

5) Start by buying inexpensive items. Put off the thousands dollar Babe Ruth baseball cards and Elvis Presley autographed photos for another day.

Without exception, all beginners make mistakes. From paying too much to misjudging rarity to buying fakes. It only makes sense that a collector should want to make the inevitable beginner’s mistakes on $10 rather that $1,000 purchases.

6) Gather a list of good sellers. A good seller is someone who is knowledgeable and trustworthy. A good seller fixes a legitimate problem when it arises, and has a good authenticity guarantee and return policy.

It’s best to buy real expensive items online from good sellers, including those you have already dealt with or those who otherwise have strong reputations."

[JimStinson]

BINGO ! drc you nailed it

[Deertick]

Jim, First off will you consider changing your name? There are an inordinate amount of Jim's on here!

Secondly, I agree with everything you said except the outcome. The main problem with these forgeries is that they have been more or less forced underground. Out of the major auction houses and dealers (and to some extent eBay) and into a nebulous secondary market. Craigslist, small local auctions, flea markets, Amazon, anywhere buyer meets seller. The target is now unsophisticated impulse buyers, and/or resellers. The motivation being the "deal" or easy profit. And I believe the economic impact is far greater than what had been previously passed through the major channels. For every $600 autograph that slipped through prior, fifty $50 "signed memorabilia" pieces are being sold daily. And as Richard and others have said: Last one with the item loses.

[drc]

I recommend either Ned or Ebeneezer. Ebby for short is fine.

[JimStinson]

Jim---- I agree with you

Secondly, I agree with everything you said except the outcome. The main problem with these forgeries is that they have been more or less forced underground. Out of the major auction houses and dealers (and to some extent eBay) and into a nebulous secondary market. Craigslist, small local auctions, flea markets, Amazon, anywhere buyer meets seller. The target is now unsophisticated impulse buyers, and/or resellers. The motivation being the "deal" or easy profit.

and thats exactly my point, that "secondary market" will be the outlets that have been in business 6 months or fit the catagory of "Autograph sellers no one has ever heard of" They may be well intentioned but uniformed. If they are unable to sell their product whatever it is then they stop buying. The "impulse buyer" non collector will likely never come into contact with any of us in the hobby anyway and in my opinion there are not enough of them to sustain a profitable business as they might only buy one autograph in their lives

[JimStinson]

Also agree with you that there are WAY too many people named Jim in this world

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

The "impulse buyer" non collector will likely never come into contact with any of us in the hobby anyway and in my opinion there are not enough of them to sustain a profitable business as they might only buy one autograph in their lives

Nedster,
While they may not come in contact with 'hobby people', they will most certainly come in contact with the the scammers or their residue. And there are exponentially more of 'them' (impulse / uninformed resellers) than 'us'. More than enough to keep a multitude of unethical dregs afloat for a long time.
Scooter

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Nedster,
While they may not come in contact with 'hobby people', they will most certainly come in contact with the the scammers or their residue. And there are exponentially more of 'them' (impulse / uninformed resellers) than 'us'. More than enough to keep a multitude of unethical dregs afloat for a long time.
Scooter

Ebby,
I strongly suspect that there are far less of "Them" than of "Us" but I could be wrong as those were the exact same words George Armstrong Custer said right before he rode over the "ridge" at the Little Big Horn.
Ned

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Nedster,
While they may not come in contact with 'hobby people', they will most certainly come in contact with the the scammers or their residue. And there are exponentially more of 'them' (impulse / uninformed resellers) than 'us'. More than enough to keep a multitude of unethical dregs afloat for a long time.
Scooter

I agree with this. I think there are less veteran buyers out there needing/wanting a real Mantle ball for $500 than there are impulse buyers saying "Wow! Mickey Mantle was my dad's hero, and I can get a ball signed by him for only $250? I'm going to buy one for my boy as a keepsake."

Ken

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I agree with this. I think there are less veteran buyers out there needing/wanting a real Mantle ball for $500 than there are impulse buyers saying "Wow! Mickey Mantle was my dad's hero, and I can get a ball signed by him for only $250? I'm going to buy one for my boy as a keepsake."

Ken

Exactly, or a son buying a Father's Day gift or a wife/mother buying a birthday gift, or, or, or.....a reseller looking for value to flip. The vetting threshold is far lower for these folks than it is for knowledgable collectors.

[HexsHeroes]

.

. . . is among the list of trusted autograph dealers that I have bought from (along with Averitt, Corcoran, Simon, Gordon, Keating, and Albersheim).

What Jim stated makes sense to me. 100% foolproof it's not, but I'd much rather take most of my chances with these gentlemen, and the remainder on my own opinion, then with most of the unknowns out there.

Thanks Jim.

[RichardSimon]

Jim, that is very much what I have been saying on this board for a long time.
But human nature being what it is, the cheap autograph will always find a home.
Whether with an unknowledgable buyer or with a crooked reseller.
The people on the board have been seeing new entities pop up almost every day now, selling bogus items all over the country.
There seem to be new forgers popping up with regularity in addition to the old ones, that we know and despise, who are still around.
(nice to see your recommendation list, about time you paid me off for all the times I have recommended you ).
And as you I rarely buy in auctions for resale but I can recommend Lelands for sports and non sports and Alexander Autographs for non sports.

ps. Did not know you were such a Carlin fan,,, me too, I saw him twice in person at the Beacon Theater on Broadway. What a show he used to put on. RIP.

[JimStinson]

Rich, I was refering to the autograph dealer Richard Simon that lives in Topeka Kansas, not the one in NYC. Its a fairly common name.