Interesting Story

[brownscollector78]

This is kind of why I try to stay away from autographed items, for the most part. With all the fakes and new technology...its just a crapshoot anymore

[RichardSimon]

It is not new technology here.
I would assume the alphabet guys were sent items, in plastic sheets, and did not even bother to remove them for a real examination. Since they were copy photos of real autographed photos they just slapped on a COA with no examination.
This was not new technology, this was just a copy photo made from an original autographed photo.
This story was originally posted on a now defunct website some time ago.
The site had the word gavel in it but I don't remember the full name of it.
There was much speculation at the time about the true ownership of the site but that has never been established.
The same test was applied to me. I received five photographs, each one in a plastic sheet. I removed the photos from the sheets and it was then apparent that two of them were copy photos of real autographed photos. I wrote out two letters of rejection for those and three COA's for the real ones. A few weeks later I received one more copy photo from the same person. I removed it from its plastic sheet and once again it was apparent that it was a copy photo. Once again I wrote out a rejection letter.
Some time later, I found the gavel website and read the story. I then posted my experience on my website, outlining the entire story. I had originally thought that the person who sent these to me had just been scammed.
Anytime these people want to pay me over $400 and run a test to see if I am doing my job, well feel free to go ahead and do it.
I feel I can make an educated guess as to who was behind this but since it is only a guess I won't post any names here.

[sycks22]

Just shows how little time they spend on authenticating the items. With all the technology they have wouldn't you think they'd know if it was a laser print?

[RichardSimon]

If they don't bother to take it out of the plastic sheet that it came in, then they won't know that it is a laser print. They are copy photos of authentically autographed photos, so just taking a quick glance will lead them to a conclusion that it is authentically signed. Taking it out of the sheet should make you immediately suspicious, then holding it under a light will clinch your suspicions.

[batsballsbases]

And the reason is as they say "Its All About The Benjamins"

[johnmh71]

PSA & JSA should pass on authenticating anything already in a frame. It appears that the desire to not tamper with the frame caused them to miss on the laser prints.

And they offered their opinion on the other two autos, which is what they were paid to do.

[brownscollector78]

I understand this wasn't new technology. I guess what I meant to say was that its just like counterfeiting money...crooks will always be upgrading their technology and improve their products to try to screw people. In many instances it's getting harder and harder to spot fakes and it certainly doesn't help when the "pros" are taking your hard earned money and authenticating fakes to add to the dilemma.

Now that this has become much more of a big business since the 70s, I don't even want to know how many fakes have been authenticated over the years. The market is over-saturated with fakes big time.

There is no end game, thats why I think it's wise to stay away from autographed items unless you're HIGHLY experienced.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by brownscollector78

There is no end game, thats why I think it's wise to stay away from autographed items unless you're HIGHLY experienced.

I do agree with that to some degree. I will repeat for the umpteenth time, if you limit your purchases to reputable knowledgable dealers who know what they are doing then you will have a very nice collection.
One of the people who answered my post to place their name on my mailing list wrote to me and said that every item in his collection came from Jim Stinson,except for one,which came from Rich Albersheim. He has a very strong chance of having a completely authentic collection.

[batsballsbases]

Richard,
Just curious if you were buying an item from "The Experts" Which ones would You trust. List please.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by johnmh71

PSA & JSA should pass on authenticating anything already in a frame. It appears that the desire to not tamper with the frame caused them to miss on the laser prints.

And they offered their opinion on the other two autos, which is what they were paid to do.

What??
Where does it say in that story that all the items were in a frame??
Maybe I missed that part??
The Mantle-DiMaggio was not in a frame. The Harry Truman was not in a frame. The Bryant and Favre signatures were not in frames. The Favre came from Favre's own company and the alphabet guys turned it down. The Bryant came from UD and the alphabet guys turned it down.

I had thought, incorrectly it seems, that PSA and JSA did not authenticate framed items.
As far as I am concerned an authenticator should never examine a framed item. I have always insisted that the client remove the item from the frame before submitting it to me.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

What??
Where does it say in that story that all the items were in a frame??
Maybe I missed that part??
The Mantle-DiMaggio was not in a frame. The Harry Truman was not in a frame. The Bryant and Favre signatures were not in frames. The Favre came from Favre's own company and the alphabet guys turned it down. The Bryant came from UD and the alphabet guys turned it down.

I had thought, incorrectly it seems, that PSA and JSA did not authenticate framed items.
As far as I am concerned an authenticator should never examine a framed item. I have always insisted that the client remove the item from the frame before submitting it to me.

directly from the jsa facebook page.

------------------------------------
Hi I am going to the Tri-Star Show in Houston in January and I have 2 autographed MJ framed jersey with autographs. Can you still authenticate it even though it's mounted and framed. Thanks Michael Riley
LikeUnlike · · October 26, 2011 at 7:27pm ·


James Spence Authentication Hi Michael,

Yes, we will be able to authenticate your items through the frame. The fee on your Michael Jordan jerseys are $100 each. We look forward to seeing you at the next Houston show

---------------------------------

https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Ja...363236?sk=wall


this is an oct. 27 post, you might have to go to older posts a couple of times to see it.

they obviously authenticate through the frame as they admit it!


It's totally inadequate in my opinion to do that. they are getting paid to detect preprint, etc. that only a close-up inspection without anything in the way can accomplish.

They have also authenticated through the ball holder, a babe ruth autograph. not cool.

[Exhibitman]

“Certification and authentication involves an individual judgment that is subjective and requires the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to time. Therefore, JSA makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for the opinion rendered by JSA on any submission.”

“Certification and authentication involves an individual judgment that is subjective and requires the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to time. Therefore, PSADNA makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for the opinion rendered by PSADNA on any submission.”

--Nuf Ced...

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

directly from the jsa facebook page.

------------------------------------
Hi I am going to the Tri-Star Show in Houston in January and I have 2 autographed MJ framed jersey with autographs. Can you still authenticate it even though it's mounted and framed. Thanks Michael Riley
LikeUnlike · · October 26, 2011 at 7:27pm ·


James Spence Authentication Hi Michael,

Yes, we will be able to authenticate your items through the frame. The fee on your Michael Jordan jerseys are $100 each. We look forward to seeing you at the next Houston show

---------------------------------

https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Ja...363236?sk=wall


this is an oct. 27 post, you might have to go to older posts a couple of times to see it.

they obviously authenticate through the frame as they admit it!


It's totally inadequate in my opinion to do that. they are getting paid to detect preprint, etc. that only a close-up inspection without anything in the way can accomplish.

They have also authenticated through the ball holder, a babe ruth autograph. not cool.

couldn't agree more that this is total Bulls***. I have recently copied a few items that I plan to keep in frames for my office....Most of the rest of the pics are going to be sold. I printed them on HP Photo Paper on a regular ink jet HP8500. The photo's actually look better in most cases. The fact that they charge $75/$100 for a Mickey Mantle and authenticate through the frame with out looking directly at the photo is akin to looking through rose colored glasses. This practice is totally unacceptable!!!!!!!!!!!

[johnmh71]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

What??
Where does it say in that story that all the items were in a frame??
Maybe I missed that part??
The Mantle-DiMaggio was not in a frame. The Harry Truman was not in a frame. The Bryant and Favre signatures were not in frames. The Favre came from Favre's own company and the alphabet guys turned it down. The Bryant came from UD and the alphabet guys turned it down.

I had thought, incorrectly it seems, that PSA and JSA did not authenticate framed items.
As far as I am concerned an authenticator should never examine a framed item. I have always insisted that the client remove the item from the frame before submitting it to me.

I was referring to the Allie Reynolds, etc as far as the frame. I believe that they were submitted that way. You are correct in regards to the Mantle-Dimaggio and the Truman. I forgot to mention previously that those appear to have not been verified properly. The Bryant and Favre appear legit, but both PSA and JSA still have a right to issue their own opinion.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by johnmh71

I was referring to the Allie Reynolds, etc as far as the frame. I believe that they were submitted that way. You are correct in regards to the Mantle-Dimaggio and the Truman. I forgot to mention previously that those appear to have not been verified properly. The Bryant and Favre appear legit, but both PSA and JSA still have a right to issue their own opinion.

I don't believe that I can authenticate something in a frame.
It is too easy to slip through a laser printed autograph and fool an authenticator as that story has proven.
I am very surprised to have found out that the alphabets will authenticate items in a frame.
I have probably lost business because I have had people write to me and state that they have framed items to authenticate and ask me if I can do it.
When I say no, I rarely hear from them again, though once in a while someone will say they have taken it out of the frame and will send it to me for an examination.
And if someone sends me something in a plastic sheet, I do make the herculean effort to remove it from the sheet before starting my examination.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by johnmh71

The Bryant and Favre appear legit, but both PSA and JSA still have a right to issue their own opinion.

You are absolutely correct. Nobody who deals or collects is perfect, mistakes are made.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by johnmh71

PSA & JSA should pass on authenticating anything already in a frame. It appears that the desire to not tamper with the frame caused them to miss on the laser prints.

And they offered their opinion on the other two autos, which is what they were paid to do.

John,
Would you say at a minimum based on what you are paying for an authentication, you would expect an 8x10 to be pulled from the sheet and given at least a cursory, uncovered examination?