Baseball Hall of Fame Vote

[packs]

I was glad to see Mattingly getting more votes this year. I'm surprised at how few votes Bernie Williams got.


I think Larkin is a deserving HOFer. Today short stops are expected to hit 30 home runs and steal 30 bases. However, until Larkin did it in 1996 no other short stop ever had. He was truly ahead of his peers.

I don't think Morris should ever get in. He wasn't the best pitcher of the 80s, he just had the most wins. Roger Clemens won 95 games in 5 seasons in the 80s. Was Morris better than he was? Clemens also won back to back CYs in the 1980s. Morris never finished higher than 3rd.

For a guy who is supposed to be the best pitcher of the 80s, Morris posted a 4.00 ERA three times and posted a 3.94 in 1988. He would go on to post a 4.00 or higher ERA in 4 of his last 5 seasons after 1989.

[Clutch-Hitter]

The thing about the drugs is that a man can remain bulked up throughout a grueling 162 game season while using them. It would seem unlikely that they could stick to a weightlifting schedule. I didn't follow the news, but didn't they only target the superstars and/or people breaking records? If thats the case, the players who were using drugs but not tested will get in with their less significant careers. A couple of people mentioned here were quite bulky towards the end of their careers, deep into the seasons. I wouldn't be surprised if nearly all players used, therefore Mac and Bonds should be compared to their peers. They were much better than all the other users playing on the same field.

And I'm not a Bonds fan BTW

PS: steroids will not help a man hit a 92 MPH slider

[tjb1952tjb]

"Biggio should get in before any of these guys. His stats might be better than you think. He's the only player in MLB history with 3,000 H, 600 2B, 400 SB, and 250 HR. This is from a guy that played 14 of his 20 seasons between C and 2B. And he was an All Star at both positions."

Totally agree........Craig Biggio should be a first ballot HOFer.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think Morris should ever get in. He wasn't the best pitcher of the 80s, he just had the most wins. Roger Clemens won 95 games in 5 seasons in the 80s. Was Morris better than he was? Clemens also won back to back CYs in the 1980s. Morris never finished higher than 3rd.

For a guy who is supposed to be the best pitcher of the 80s, Morris posted a 4.00 ERA three times and posted a 3.94 in 1988. He would go on to post a 4.00 or higher ERA in 4 of his last 5 seasons after 1989.

I have to disagree with you on Morris. He was a big game pitcher and only Sandy Koufax had as many Babe Ruth awards as Morris (best player in the postseason). Yes he didn't win 300 games (only won 254) but arguably there will never be another 300 game winner in MLB. Morris was a gamer and never wanted to come out of a game, often wanting to pitch all 9 innings. I think this hurt his ERA because of late inning runs scored against him when he was tiring but had a lead. He won 162 games during the 80's, a MLB best, and his 7th game 10 inning shutout of the Braves in the 1991 WS was arguably the greatest pitching feat in history because of what was at stake, even better than Larsen's perfect game. He was a 5 time All-Star and started 14 consecutive opening games. His ERA ended up at 3.90 but he was a dominant force on the mound.

[packs]

Even Morris' post-season ERA is almost 4.00. People keep saying no one will win 300 games again but since Morris' retirement Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and Tom Glavine all went on to win 300 games.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Average season of 15 HR 71 RBI, for a guy who ended up with only 2300 hits, doesn't feel like a HOFer to me.

[Irwin Fletcher]

I'm glad that Larkin was elected - I think he is a deserving HOFer at his position. I would also like to see Raines and Trammell get in.

Jack Morris, however, is not a Hall of Famer. The argument that he was the best pitcher of the 1980s is based on an arbitrary span of years that basically gives Morris credit for having his career begin before 1980 and end after 1989. There is simply no reason to use this temporal criteria to evaluate a player's skill and performance. The bottom line is that Morris was above average, but not by much (about 5 percent). There are so many other clearly superior pitchers who have gotten much less HOF consideration than Morris just because their period of quality pitching didn't occur between years ending in a 0, including David Cone, Jim Kaat, Chuck Finley, Orel Hershiser, Luis Tiant, and Rick Reuschel. None of these pitchers deserve to be in the HOF, but all of them were better than Morris.

Take a look at Baseball-Reference's list of WAR leaders for pitchers. Morris has a lower career WAR than Javier Vasquez, Tom Candiotti, and Bob Welch (and I would also argue that Welch was better than Morris in the 1980s).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Chuck Finley and Rick Reuschel "clearly superior" to Jack Morris?

[Robextend]

Mike Mussina is going to be interesting in a couple of years. I don’t think he is a hall of famer, but postseason success aside, his career was better than that of Jack Morris (who I also don’t think is a hall of famer).

[Irwin Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Robextend

Mike Mussina is going to be interesting in a couple of years. I don’t think he is a hall of famer, but postseason success aside, his career was better than that of Jack Morris (who I also don’t think is a hall of famer).

I agree - Mussina is a really close case. And he was significantly better than Morris.

[Irwin Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Chuck Finley and Rick Reuschel "clearly superior" to Jack Morris?

Baseball-Reference has Finley's career WAR as 55.0, compared to 39.3 for Morris. This is a significant difference. Also, Finley's career adjusted ERA+ is 115 (15 percent better than league average) while Morris's is 105 (5 percent better than league average).

Believe it or not, Reuschel blows both of them away in WAR - 66.3(!) and his career adjusted ERA+ is a solid 114.

My point is that no one considers Finley or Reuschel to be HOFers and rightfully so. Why all the love for Morris?

[packs]

I think Mussina is a definite HOFer but he'll probably have to wait a few years. He finished nearly 120 wins over 500 pitching his entire career in the AL East during the height of the steroid era. That's a HOFer to me.