Were PIEDMONT 460 factory #42 & UZIT backs printed simultaneously ?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Incidently, the PIEDMONT 460/42 and UZIT cards have 28 fronts in common from the 350/460 series.

And, 8 fronts in common from the 460-only series (which to date there are only 12 subjects known with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back).

TED Z

While it is true some of fronts are shared by both Piedmont 42 and Uzit, not enough are to show concurrent printings. However there are enough that don't match to show they were not concurrent printings.

Breaking these two groups into subsets is not the proper way to analyze how these two backs were printed and can only lead to false conclusions. It's interesting to think about 350/460 and 460 separately but it isn't how the cards were being printed at that time.

I know it's just my opinion but I haven't seen anything to date that would lead me to believe there are two different shades of blue Uzits.

[wonkaticket]

First off I’m not going to speculate on what standard printers practice was 100+ years ago because that is all it will be at the end of the day, speculation.

I will say from experience as an owner of a company that specializes in premium giveaways and retail products. There will always be manufacturing variances, the reasons behind such variances are many but often carry a common reason as to why. Most of the time it’s the most obvious reason FWIW.

From my experience collecting T206’s for 25+ years I can say that these cards have all sorts of little nuances that go missed. Many of which simply boil down to saturation of ink applied or missed ink all together.




There are dozens of little goofy things in this set that advanced collectors have privately chased for years under wraps to keep folks from looking for them to drive them up. Seriously it’s the magicians guild god help you if you are told something and tell someone else about that missing dot card…no kidding.

Example the cards below can be found with all sorts of degrees of clouds, glove colors, redness in cheeks etc. i.e. Ritchey/Doves.




Most all of them are simply cosmetic subtle changes that only by handling many of one card would you be aware of or notice. Some to most all have no real value either. Then there are those true cards with real visible striking differences which command premiums due to rarity.




There are also tons of faded backs I have a few Tolstoi’s in which the ink has been so lightly applied they look grey or brown…they are of course black.

IMO “True” color differences in backs are really stand out and not too subtle and also carry some common attributes in terms of series or subjects. A common rule of thumb is if you have to ask it’s most likely a faded version of its normal counterpart.

This from a guy who likes differences in backs and actively collects such anomalies and or variations; I see no differences in the Uzit brand.

I have been fortunate to handle and see quite a few from other collectors collections as well as own examples and I just don’t see it. In fact I have a few Uzits on hand now from a board member and like Tim posted above with the SC 649 there can be subtle differences but no night and day print difference.

Cheers,

John

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

While it is true some of fronts are shared by both Piedmont 42 and Uzit, not enough are to show concurrent printings. However there are enough that don't match to show they were not concurrent printings.

Breaking these two groups into subsets is not the proper way to analyze how these two backs were printed and can only lead to false conclusions. It's interesting to think about 350/460 and 460 separately but it isn't how the cards were being printed at that time.

Tim

I fully understand that the subjects in the 350/460 series and the 460-only series were not distinct entities back in 1911 when American Litho. was printing these cards.
Consider this, I have identified 28 subjects from what we now refer to as the "350/460 series".....and, 8 subjects from the "460-only series".....that are common to both
the P460/42 and UZIT brands. And, there is a good likelihood that these 36 subjects may have been on one 36-card sheet.

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I know it's just my opinion but I haven't seen anything to date that would lead me to believe there are two different shades of blue Uzits.

I just bumped up my current "UZIT" thread. Observe the backs of my Herzog and Schaefer cards. Then tell me that there is not a stark difference in their blue colors ?

DITTO goes for Jim B's Willis vs Mike S's Mullin.

I have seen enough of these cards in my 30+ years of collecting T206's, that I can say with certainty that there is a noticeable difference in the blue coloring of some
UZIT's vs other UZIT's.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, there is a good likelihood that these 36 subjects may have been on one 36-card sheet.

With a high degree of certainty I can say that is likely not true.

Originally Posted by tedzan

I just bumped up my current "UZIT" thread. Observe the backs of my Herzog and Schaefer cards. Then tell me that there is not a stark difference in their blue colors ?

There is no stark difference in the blue inks between the Herzog back and Schaefer, but simply a difference in the amount of ink applied.

Originally Posted by tedzan

I have seen enough of these cards in my 30+ years of collecting T206's, that I can say with certainty that there is a noticeable difference in the blue coloring of some UZIT's vs other UZIT's.

I readily admit I haven't been collecting T206's for 30 years but I can say with certainty as well that there is a noticeable difference in the backs of some Uzits but it's not due to a change in the ink color.

I'm not trying to be contrarian but just like sharing what I know or think about the set with people that are open to discussing it. By all means you are free to have your opinion in spite of what I've presented. Happy collecting.

[terjung]

I certainly haven't studied the set for years and have owned exactly 1 T206 in my lifetime, so take that into consideration. I have done a significant amount of screen printing, however. I know it is not identical, but the resultant "ink on the medium" show similar characteristics.

Having looked at both threads and all the different examples of UZIT backs, it's tough to see the argument for a second (lighter) colored back. If the lighter colored UZITs didn't all have the paper showing through them, I think an argument for a second color would be much stronger. Looks to me like an ink application variation. If a lighter ink color UZIT back were printed, I'd think you would see examples of it without any of the background medium showing through it - a bold lighter blue back, for example. In the screen printing world, you'd look at the lighter colored ones and say, "It needs another pass."

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I just bumped up my current "UZIT" thread. Observe the backs of my Herzog and Schaefer cards. Then tell me that there is not a stark difference in their blue colors ? TED Z

There is not a major difference just saturation differences which can be found on almost all brands of backs from EPDG to AB. I see no new variation of Uzit here.

John

[tedzan]

I'm not proposing a "new variation" here. That was not the purpose of why I initiated this subject.

The primary motivation for this thread has been my long-term curiousity regarding the PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 backs,
of which the greater majority of them are a lighter blue than all other PIEDMONT series backs.

With the UZIT backs there is no denying it, there are some whose backs are a lighter shade of blue than others. But, not
as pronouced a difference as the PIEDMONT 460/42 backs.

That's it.....this is no more complicated than that. I threw this out there to stimulate some thought-provoking discussion.

And, I appreciate the many interesting comments that have been posted here.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted I understand what you are saying but the same can be said for a lot of brands. I have cards with dark purple Drum and light purple Drum, same for other brands and fronts for that matter.

It’s really a question of saturation as Tim pointed out nothing more IMO. I also tried to illustrate above with images. How much ink is applied to a card can have a significant change on the cards appearance. Layout 10 examples of any back or same front and you will see subtle differences and some are actually really neat and very noticeable. BTW this goes for lots of card sets not just T206.

In regards to T206 there are certain cards that distinct differences are very clear. I regards to backs I think for sure Lenox brown and OM Southern brown fall under this category and possibly Piedmont 42.

Will we find other shades of EPDG, or AB who knows perhaps? The set is enormous and while we know a bunch and figure out more each day we should never think we have it licked as new stuff will continue to come to market that will turn today’s thinking upside down.

We are far from seeing all this set has to offer.

John

[steve B]

Man that's a tough one to read.

I don't have a drum yet,(or a Uzit) and you have them with darker or lighter backs!

I'm glad there are collections like that, and collection owners willing to discuss differences in the rare stuff.

Steve B