Past, Present, Future 5 Tool Players...

[mintacular]

I was wondering who you thought are the best "5-Tool" players in baseball history? I think it's a remarkable thing when a player can combine all 5 talents (batting avg, batting power, base-running speed, throwing, and defense). In my mind, Barry Bonds and Griffey Jr. were the best "Present" (ok I realize they retired a couple years ago...) and Andrew McCutcheon a future 5-Tool Guy. "Past" I'm not so sure about but would be interested in particular of pre-war guys, I guess Mantle and Mays would be the obvious chocies off the top of my head.. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Also, do you think "5-tool" no longer applies or is still relevant? Ir seems like traditional stats are now challenged by sabermetrics (OPS, etc.) and therefore the 5 Tool Paradigm might be too simplistic of a way to evaluate a player's worth...

[Brian Van Horn]

Dave Parker in his prime was a five tool player. Weight and other things changed and diminished his numbers.

[sycks22]

Han Ram for the most part (not batting avg this year). Could Pujols be considered a 5 tool player even though he's at 1st? He steals 10-15 bags a year at 1st.

[mintacular]

Han Ram maybe, Pujols not. You usually plant your most unathletic player at 1st

[bbcard1]

No argument that Bonds was a tool...

There are a lot of 40s and 50s guys whose stats don't bear out their speed because of the game. Cobb was a great power hitter in context of his day. I really think you could make a good case for Ruth...the pitching just makes it hard not to argue that he was as good all-round as you could ask for.

[Fred]

Ty Cobb did lead the league in SBs and HRs one year, albeit only 9 HRs. He did play in the dead ball era so HRs weren't very plentiful.

Willie Mays was a great 5 -tool player. He led the league in SBs and HRs 4x for each stat, but never in the same year. We know he could field and throw.

Today I'd look at Matt Kemp. He's got the potential to be a solid 5-tool player if he can cut down on his K's and keep BA above .300

[Brian Van Horn]

Two names: Tris Speaker and Sam Crawford.

[wheels56]

Nate Schierholtz. :-). Stole 2nd twice today.

[bcbgcbrcb]

For a brief period of time, Eric Davis (Cin) was as good as it gets.

[quinnsryche]

How about Clemente?

[Mark]

Not only Clemente but also Wagner.

[LanceRoten]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

For a brief period of time, Eric Davis (Cin) was as good as it gets.

Brief but yes. Eric was good. 1987 for the amount of games he played was a great year for Eric. I'll give a vote to Mantle overall.

[peterb69]

I second Roberto Clemente. I think he was the best 5 tool player.

[Robextend]

Raul Mondesi in 1997

310AVG 30HR 32SB, won a Gold Glove and had a rocket for an arm.

[Big Ben]

I'll throw some names on here that haven't been mentioned.

Kirby Puckett
Dave Winfield
Bo Jackson before the injury
Joe Dimaggio

Does anyone think that Rickey Henderson belongs on this list?

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

I'll throw some names on here that haven't been mentioned.

Kirby Puckett
Dave Winfield
Bo Jackson before the injury
Joe Dimaggio

Does anyone think that Rickey Henderson belongs on this list?

I agree on Puckett, DiMaggio, and Winfield (especially in the 1970's when he used his speed to steal bases). I was going to say Bo Jackson, but with a career avg of 250 and an OBP of 309...I think he was lacking 1 of the 5 tools.

You could make a case for Rickey, but I never really saw him as much of a power threat or superior defender. In fact his defense was pretty average at best for most of his career.

[GaryPassamonte]

Not to appear foolish, but who is Han Ran?

[quinnsryche]

Hanley Ramirez

[Big Ben]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I agree on Puckett, DiMaggio, and Winfield (especially in the 1970's when he used his speed to steal bases). I was going to say Bo Jackson, but with a career avg of 250 and an OBP of 309...I think he was lacking 1 of the 5 tools.

You could make a case for Rickey, but I never really saw him as much of a power threat or superior defender. In fact his defense was pretty average at best for most of his career.

I know what you mean about Jackson. Unfortunately we will never know, but I think Bo would have improved his average enough to be considered.

I agree with you about Henderson's defense, but I think that he managed to win 1 Gold Glove.

[LanceRoten]

I'm sure Rickey believed Rickey was a Six Tool Player. Thus making him ineligible for all five tool lists

[39special]

how about Andre Dawson, and until this year Jayson Werth

[kcohen]

An obvious inclusion I think.

[Northviewcats]

Ken Griffey Jr. in his prime could hit, run and catch with the best of them. Gary Sheffield is another interesting possibility for your list.

Best regards,

Joe

[insidethewrapper]

How about Al Kaline ( great hitter with 399 HR's, great in the field and the best arm I've ever seen). I thought he was fast but didn't get a lot of SB's in his era.

[tedzan]

A lot of great ballplayers have been already mentioned here and we could go on till this thread gets into 3-digit posts.
In recent years, I wish Bo Jackson had stayed strictly with BB. Who knows what kind of career he would have had ?
I saw him play several times at Yankee Stadium in the late 1980's. Gee, he could crush a baseball and do everything.

Anyhow, let's throw in a "6th DIMENSION"....pitching. Are there any others that can compare with Ruth ?




And, don't fault me on Ruth's running. For a super star slugger, he had quite a few SB's and a good number of Triples.


TED Z

[almostdone]

Following Ted Z talking about Babe Ruth is tough but back to the original question, what about Darryl Straberry in the first 5 years of his carrer?
Drew

[packs]

I think Ichiro could hit 30 a year if he wanted to.

[uffda51]

Henry Louis Aaron. Had more than 20 steals six times including at age 34. Not as good an arm as Clemente (not many did) but Clemente's high in steals was 12. Aaron also hit some dingers.

"I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger. Then it hit me… "

[Tom S.]

What about Willie Mays?

[prewarsports]

Louis Sockalexis was one of baseballs first (if not THE first) five tool player. His defense and throwing arm were the stuff of legend while he was in college and he was the fastest player in baseball the one year he played full time. Combine that with his high average and extraordinary power for his era (he once hit a 400 foot+ home run against Amos RUsie) and he might have been the first player that was a 5 tool player by todays standards.

Rhys

[Fred]

Just my opinion...

If you start figuring out who the 5 tool players out then you gotta know what the 5 tools are.

The toughest part is the defense and the arm. We can pretty much only rely on stories from the past.

Offensive stats are a bit different, they are related to eras (dead ball/live ball) and can be more easily judged.

If a player led his league in SBs or HRs then you can deduce that the player had that/those tools. If the player was near the top in those categories (they may not have led the league but were close) then that (imo) applies towards deriving at the player having those offensive tools.

If a player only stole 12 bags (at the most) in a year and the league leaders were near that then you could say he had relative speed. If the league leaders were consistently at 30 then I wouldn't be giving him that tool. He could have been an exceptional player with great speed but he didn't really have that SB tool in his arsenal. To me, that player is a 4 tool player (if he truly posseses the tools).

Also, lets look at this realistically, if you want to give credit to a player being a 5 tool player then some people might consider Jose Canseco because he was a 40/40 player (first one) and they may just decide to throw the fielding tools at him because they didn't know any better. I still love that video of that ball bouncing off his head for a homerun! Jose was a tool... but not a 5 tool player.

Now that I've taken the fun out of this, carry on...

[familytoad]

Tris Speaker was mentioned earlier in the thread (Brian V) but no one really commented on him. He is the real deal.Despite the deadball era, his EXBH hits are sick! Later on, so are a few others 5-toolers like Mantle and Mays.

Seems like many of the threads are digging to find guys who may be close.
I think if you have to debate very long whether the player fits the category...well there's the answer...its NO

And Ichiro? Umm...if a 5 tool guy is expected to hit the ball out of the infield then he's out of the question.
I've heard many times over the years that he could hit 30 HRs a year if he wanted to. Geez, that's incredible baloney...why wouldn't he want to? Why the fascination with groundouts and infield singles?

Anyway, Charlie Gehringer had some awesome stats (especially in 1929 when he added 27 swipes to his 77 EXBH) but since he only averaged 13 HR and 13 SB for his career he's out too

[howard38]

.

[bcbgcbrcb]

You can't overlook Vlad Guerrero during the first half of his career with Montreal. Larry Walker too......