Vintage Basketball Collectors - What's new (ummm ahh, I mean old)?

[ramram]

For the brave few that delve into early basketball, have you found anything new (old) to add to your collection? I'm still learning about the early years of basketball and would enjoy hearing what some of you advanced collectors have to share.

Recently, I picked up an interesting group of three professional basketball scorebooks covering 1935 - 1940. Through them, and some limited research, I've discovered a lot about the early professional teams/players/leagues.

These scorebooks were the Indianapolis Kautsky's team scorebooks. John Wooden was their big star in the early years. They cover the period of the Midwest Basketball Conference and the beginning of the NBL (National Basketball League, which became the NBA).

Most of the teams of this era were backed by business owners and companies. Frank Kautsky was a store owner and one of the two founders of the NBL/NBA. They played league teams from around the midwest as well as the big barnstorming teams from the east; Harlem Renaissance/Harlem Rens/New York Rens (an all black team - they were one of the greatest teams of all time and were elected as a team into the Hall of Fame), Philadelphia SPHA's (South Philadelphia Hebrew Association - MANY of the early basketball stars were Jewish) and the Original Celtics.

There are over 100 games scored in these scorebooks and they include games against all of these teams as well as league games (one of the league teams, Buffalo, had a black player, Hank Williams, which made Buffalo one of the earliest integrated professional teams) and other non-league games (including the all-black Chicago Crusaders and also the Philadelphia Commanders).

A few other tidbits that I learned while going through the scorebooks - Wooden had an older brother that played with him for awhile. He shows up in the scorebook as "M Wooden" and also as "C Wooden" (his nickname was "Cat"). The scorebooks also cover part of the period that Wooden set the professional consecutive free throw record of 134 in a row. Two of the Harlem Ren's players were also Negro League baseball stars - Bill Yancey and Clarence "Fats" Jenkins. Another team that played the Kautsky's was the Hammond Ciesar team with baseball Hall of Famer Lou Boudreau (he was a basketball All-American).


Below are a few pics from one of the three scorebooks.

Rob M.

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[Ladder7]

Very nice. Is the cover plain jane?

Someday, there'll be an easy and non-destructive way to display vintage programs, other than digitally.

[ramram]

Yes, all three are just standard scorebooks (one of them is shown below). The real value is the content. There is little, and in many cases no record, of the details of many of these games.

Rob M.


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[Jewish-collector]

Rob M.,

Those scorecards are really impressive !!! I am a collector of basketball memorabilia, especially the vintage stuff, but I don't have too much early stuff, since I can't really afford the good stuff plus it's hard to find anyway.

I did a lot of early basketball research some years ago. As a matter of fact, I was a huge TTM autograph collector at the time & used to compile & sell a basketball address list. I tracked guys down who used to play in the NBL, BAA, Eastern League, etc,... and wrote to them for autographs.

I suggest you join APBR and its related message board to correspond to others who are researchers & enthusiasts of early basketball.

http://apbr.org/

[andypcl]

I have virtually no early basketball and although not really old, thought you may like this one. My inlaws were both Cal grads and had this in their closet and until recently, didn't even remember having it. The Kingston trio had just released their first record a year earlier. I decided it needed a frame.

[Andy Sandler]

Hi Alan! Please email me. I collect old Basketball autographs. What do you have?
Thanks, Andy Sandler alwysyakn@aol.com

[David W]

Nothing to spectacular, but I found this at a flea market several years ago, and bought it because Bobby Plump was in it. Plump was the inspiration for the movie "Hoosiers". Many college stars played in "Amateur" leagues as employees of a company for better pay until the late 50's when the NBA became more established.

[olsport]

This basketball photo is baseball related as well. It features The baseball HOF'r George Kelly, back in 1919, when he was in the military. As a complete coincidence, he was at Kelly field where he was stationed.

George is on Far Right bottom. The guy in uniform with hat on looks just like "Billy Jack" hahaha

[olsport]

K.C. Jones signed U.S.F undefeated college champs with (Bill Russell).
Wilt Chamberlain Sixers photo postcard

[Toy Wheeler]

Wonderful find, Rob! Would love to see a page from the Chicago Crusaders' scorebook if you could place another image.

[ramram]

Toy -

Here's a Kautskys vs. Chicago Crusader's game.

Rob M.

kautskys vs crusaders 2.jpg

kautskys vs crusaders.jpg

[Toy Wheeler]

Wow, thanks, Rob. The Chicago Crusaders are one of pro basketball's best untold stories, featuring about a dozen seminal stars of the Thirties who made names & breakthroughs in Chicago & elsewhere.

[MK]

I've been trying to complete a run of these record books which were put out by the Indianapolis News back when Indiana High School basketball was king.

[Toy Wheeler]

My word, MK -- those are true treasures, too! Do you happen to have the books from 1940, 1941, & 1942? In those seasons my high school was coached by the legendary Marion Crawley. Fully four of Crawley's kids -- Leo Klier, Charlie Harmon, Art Grove, & Big Jim Riffey -- went on to significant professional basketball careers.

Dr J Naismith spoke memorably in Indianapolis in 1936. Would love to know whether those Indy News books were printed in the Thirties, too. Thanks!

[MK]

Toy Wheeler,
The first year of this publication was 1942. I have never seen one, as I'm sure it was a very limited production. It was also not published in 1944 or 45 due to the war. I checked but none of the ones I have Marion Crawley on the cover. He was a great coach. Here are a few more examples from my collection.

[Vintage Basketball Pat]

I look on here quite often, but it has been some time since I added a remark. I have an extensive collection of vintage basketball items...and I love the old publications.

Below is an image of the 1942 and 1943 Indianapolis Record Books - hopefully you can see it.

Marian Crawley is on the first booklet.



Enjoy!

Vintage Basketball Pat

[Andy Sandler]

Vintage Basketball Pat, I, too, am a big collector of vintage basketball programs, tickets, schedules, photos, autographs, equipment, etc. Please email me at alwysyakn@aol.com
as I would love to talk with you about what exists and what does not.
Thanks, Andy Sandler (845) 331-8610 New York

[Toy Wheeler]

Thanks, Vintage Bkb Pat. Would you happen to know whether the "1942" book featuring Crawley on the cover came out in advance of the 1941-42 season, or the 1942-43 season?

My guess is the book came out in the autumn of 1941, after Crawley had coached his Hatchets to the '41 title in March. For the 1942-43 preview Crawley would've been in flux, having left the Hatchets after coaching them to a 2nd straight state title.

Also funny the Rick Mount book cost 34 cents, while the Van Arsdale book that preceded Rocket by a couple years went for 35 cents!

[Jewish-collector]

Pat,

It's about time you posted !!! (j/k)

Alan

[Vintage Basketball Pat]

Toy Wheeler...

It looks like the book was put together after the 1941 championship won by the Washington Hatchets and prior to the 1942 season. It has a nice writeup of the game...the tourney bracket as well. They beat Madison 39-33. In fact, the Hatchets shot 28.6% from the field that day!

Andy...

I am looking forward to the Chicago National this year. I am going to try to attend.

Pat

[Jewish-collector]

Pat,

If you attend the National, then you can join us for dinner !!!

Best,
Alan

[ramram]

Speaking of Indiana High School State Tournaments, here's a page from the scorebooks that contains the 1936/37 tournament finals at Butler Fieldhouse. Scott Armstrong, who is one of the listed players, went on to have a very good college and pro career.

Rob M.

1937 state championship 1.jpg

1937 state championship 2.jpg

[herkyhawkeye]

I received this trophy as a Christmas Present,




Base is etched KCAA 1925 Kesewick. Sorry for the poor quality

Trophy is marked with a WB on back

[Toy Wheeler]

Herky,

What's that a trophy of -- the Indiana state championship?


Thanks for the additional info about the Hatchets, Vintage Pat!

[Vintage Basketball Pat]

Toy Wheeler and MK...

With the recent talk related to Indiana Basketball, I went into my collection and found an item that you guys might find interesting. It is a 35 page tall format Indiana Basketball School publication full of plays from 1942 with Cliff Wells and Marian Crowley as key contributors.

If either of you have interest in this, let me know. I would probably want around $40 for it. I would throw in another similar 25 page publication that has a little bit of Clair Bee stuff and some football too. I hate to dilute the great sport of basketball with mention of another sport...but it is a nice bonus item.

I've attached an image of the front of the publication for your enjoyment.

Thanks, Pat

[vintagesportflips]

I figured I would revive this basketball thread with a recent pickup of mine. It is a trophy basketball from the 1923 AAU Basketball championship game between the Kansac City Athletic Club (KCAC) Blue Diamonds versus the Hillyard All Shines. The ball has National AAU Champions painted in gold at the top, and a large white painted diamond (I guess the diamond shape to coincide with their team name) that is decorated with the score and the starting 5 of the KCAC - George Williams Capt C, George Reeves F, Milton Singer F, George “Pidge” Browning G, and Robert Sanders G