Most Overrated Pre-War Player is...

[Rob D.]

Bill James has said and written on more than one occasion that -- I'm paraphrasing here -- one of the worst cases that can be made for a player being inducted into the Hall of Fame is the "If Player A is in, then Player B should be in" argument.

Common sense should tell you that if this method of reasoning were valid, then eventually every player would be inducted into the Hall of Fame, because there would be no end. Heck, even managers of company softball teams would end up giving speeches in Cooperstown. Of course, because fans are so passionate about players they saw play or spoke to at an autograph signing, common sense often goes out the window when it comes to Hall of Fame debates.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted: sure defense is the primary reason why they are in, but I think to make it principally on defense you at least have to meet a certain threshold of offensive production, and with 1400 hits Marty Marion just isn't there. With nearly 2500, plus the steals, Ozzie is. Personally I would not have elected Mazeroski. To illustrate my point if the undisputed greatest shortstop of all time hit .188, he wouldn't make it. Ted your perceptions of some of the 40s players like Terry Moore, Tommy Henrich, and others who (if memory serves) you have pronounced Hall-worthy just do not seem objective to me but seem tinged with nostalgia.

Edit I agree Bill James is not perfect.... For example I think he is insane to rate Arky Vaughan in the top 40 players of all time.

[tedzan]

Peter

I fully agree with you that Mazeroski should not be in. And, I don't think anyone would deny Ozzie HOF status.
My understanding is that a Pittsburgh Pirate guy (who had a lot of pull) was on the Veterans Committee that
elected Maz.

Perhaps you're right that my subjective feelings enter into my preferences on guys like Tommy Henrich, Marty
Marion, Terry Moore, Gil Hodges, etc. I grew up seeing these guys (on TV or in a ballpark) play the game; and,
I was at the very impressionable age of a 10 year old to a teenager then. And, when you reach my age, your
mind starts to regress back to 1947 - 1960. And, believe me those memory's are as clear as if they were just
yesterday.

Regards,

TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted I think it's human nature to be biased towards the older players, particularly where today's players are largely so inaccesible and unappealing.

[Mark]

Maz isn't in the Hall solely because of the homerun. He was in because he played second base like he belonged in a higher league. Back in the day when only a few games were on national tv, you had to follow the NL to notice. Thus, there might be some American League fans out there who aren't fully wise to all of Maz's accomplishments in the field. I never saw Marty Marion, so I would have to defer to people who followed the National League back in the 40's.

[familytoad]

I love the HOF debate...I could read through the rationale from all of our perspectives all night. This thread veered toward the hallowed halls pretty quickly.
The OP didn't mention that the most overrated pre-war player had to be a Hall of Famer, so I went with Chase.

But Jeff...as I assumed you might respond, the fascination w/Chase is indeed the irony that if he wanted to be among the heroes instead of villians, by most accounts he likely could have been. And while any of the banned players make good copy...they might be a better fit for the purer definition of over-rated. Chase may be rated about right...a good player and a very bad man.

Fred McMullin? Chick Gandil?


Reflecting on debatable HOFers is also a bit ironic. When discussing Maranville, Haines or Geo. Kelly for example...none of us "rate" them high at all. In fact they could be considered overrated by the HOF, but not by us, the readers of this forum!

Still, I guess they are rated higher than guys like Lou Criger, Bill Bergen or Freddy Parent...those are real bums

[ElCabron]

I'd like to submit Andy Cooper as the Negro League entry.

But this thread loses credibility by the fact that Sisler was even mentioned in it. I don't care that his career OBP was .379, which is not as horrible as some are trying to argue it is. If that was the only category careers were judged by, then I would agree that he should not be in the Hall. Fortunately, it is not. His career BA was .340. Three-freakin-forty! He batted over .400 twice. He also led the league in stolen bases 4 times.

It's true that he didn't walk a lot, because he was too busy hitting the ball. For those who actually watch the game of baseball, there are many situations where a hit is infinitely better than a walk. With less than two outs and a runner on first, would you rather have the next batter be a guy who walks a lot or a guy who hits .340? Runners don't advance from first to third on walks. Unless they are Rickey Henderson.

I'm a statistics nerd as much as anyone here, but baseball is not a home run derby. Offensive statistics should not be the only measure of a player's worth. Most board members would make the absolute worst general managers in the world because they'd assemble teams without ever considering defense. Their ace pitchers would have horrible stats from all the balls that would drop behind them due to lack of range in the outfield instead of being caught. Plus all the singles that good infielders would have turned into outs. Not to mention all the inning-ending double plays that would instead result in 3 or 4 run rallies.

Defense matters. What is it that wins in the playoffs? Is it pitching and on-base percentage?

Bill Mazeroski was the best defensive second baseman of all-time. Unless his career average was under .180, anyone who is considered the best ever at his position means he's a legit HOFer to me. In the 1960s Maz led the league in assists 9 times! Think of how many of those outs might have been hits. Turning hits into outs helps you win games.

Along those lines, Omar Vizquel should absolutely be a HOFer as well. Forget about his 2,800 hits and 400 stolen bases. No one has ever played more games at shortstop and he has the highest fielding percentage in history outside of future HOFer, Troy Tulowitzki who has played 2,000 fewer games.

Also, for you guys who only judge players by stats, why does Dizzy Dean never get brought up in these discussions? Go look at his career stats. You'll be shocked.

-Ryan

[tbob]

Everyone's dissing the HOFers from Arkansas Lou Brock, Dizzy Dean, Arky Vaughn, etc. Who's next, Bill Dickey? Brooks Robinson?

[Anthony S.]

Bill Dickey and Brooks Robinson