Blyleven & Alomar get in the HOF

[uffda51]

It looks like it's "Wait til Next Year" for Raul Mondesi.

Re: Blyleven. Warren Spahn won 20 games 13 times, 8 times leading the league in wins including five years in a row, and made 14 All-Star teams.

Bert won 20 gmes once, never lead the league in wins, and made three all-star teams.

He may well be the first player born in the Netherlands to make the Hall.

[cdn_collector]

Congrats Robbie!

Just like I said last year when Alomar didn't get in, I have a huge bias here. I'm thrilled he got into the HoF, and while I don't think there is any excuse ever to spit in somebody's face, I don't think it should come into the equation.

If we're going to start looking at character first, then there are some racists, bigots, cheaters, gamblers and even others that have spit in umpires faces that are already enshrined and need to have their plaques taken down.


Regards,

Richard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IF Bert is in, Tommy John and Jim Kaat should be in too, they are very comparable and it is hard for me to justify including only one of them. That said, I would not vote for any of them, but would put them one rung down.

[barrysloate]

Jay- I think you are selectively picking stats of Blyleven's that are not among his best. Everything you cited suggests he was borderline, but when you consider the 287 wins and 3000+ strikeouts, I believe he is deserving.

It would be like saying Nolan Ryan doesn't belong because he had a mediocre won-lost record and never won a Cy Young, but conveniently leaving out the 5714 strikeouts and the 7 no-hitters. You have to look at the whole picture, not just those stats that fall a little short.

[mr2686]

Just to answer Anthony's question about what kind of run support Bert had in those 17 loses in 1973 (you can tell I'm board), the twins scored 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 0, 2, 1, 3,1 ,2, 7, 3 and 0

[mayx2]

The fact that these guys got votes shows what a joke the voting is! Lou

Kevin Brown^ 12 2.1
Tino Martinez^ 6 1
Marquis Grissom^ 4 0.7
Al Leiter^ 4 0.7
John Olerud^ 4 0.7
B.J. Surhoff^ 2 0.3
Bret Boone^ 1 0.2
Benito Santiago^ 1 0.2

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Just to answer Anthony's question about what kind of run support Bert had in those 17 loses in 1973 (you can tell I'm board), the twins scored 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 0, 2, 1, 3,1 ,2, 7, 3 and 0

Funny, a truly bad team did not disturb Steve Carlton's 1972 accomplishments. And yet no one argues about whether or not he is HOF-worthy.

That is the difference between truly dominant and merely great. Carlton was dominant. Blyleven was great for a long time, but never dominant.

[Anthony S.]

The stat I simply can't get past when considered his HOF credentials is the 60 shutouts. Nowadays that's 2 full seasons of complete game shutouts. Not only is it 9th all-time, but the first 5 guys on the list were deadballers for either their entire career (Young, Mathewson, Alexander) or for the part of their career during which they registered the vast majority of their shutouts (Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander).

The only players whose careers started after 1911 who've pitched more shutouts are Spahn (63), Ryan (61), and Seaver (61). That's heady company. Ryan needed nearly 100 more starts than Blyleven to get that extra shutout, but then again he didn't have very good stuff.

And it's not a tortured statistic like "quality start," it means that 60 times in his career the opposing team couldn't do jack squat against him. More often than Gibson, Carlton, Palmer, Feller, Perry, Niekro, etc, etc., etc.

[chaddurbin]

i'm relishing the blyleven election as much as i hated the jim rice's. thank you rich lederer.

blyleven can't control what his teammates do when he pitches, how many runs he gets, the park he plays in, the freakish ball bounces...but the things he can control he was very good at, and he did it for a LONG time (which is better than a short time). his counting stats are similar to the 8 guys below (and even better in pitching-controlled stats like bb/9, so/9, hr/9), so if he doesn't belong then take these 8 guys out also.

Don Sutton (914) *
Gaylord Perry (909) *
Fergie Jenkins (890) *
Robin Roberts (876) *
Tom Seaver (864) *
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840) *

[calvindog]

The two AS games for Blyleven are really troubling but Anthony makes a good point about him finishing third in the CY voting and not making the AS team that year. But only four top-ten finishes for the Cy Young? That's awful. Sutton didn't fare much better, making four AS games and had five top ten CY finishes. Tommy John: four AS games and four CY top ten finishes.

Jim Rice, who many on this board whined about for making the HOF, had eight AS games and six top ten MVP finishes including one MVP award. And Barry Larkin made 12 AS teams and won an MVP award. He'll get in eventually but it's hard to argue that he wasn't at least as HOF-worthy as Blyleven.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jay- I think you are selectively picking stats of Blyleven's that are not among his best. Everything you cited suggests he was borderline, but when you consider the 287 wins and 3000+ strikeouts, I believe he is deserving.

It would be like saying Nolan Ryan doesn't belong because he had a mediocre won-lost record and never won a Cy Young, but conveniently leaving out the 5714 strikeouts and the 7 no-hitters. You have to look at the whole picture, not just those stats that fall a little short.

I agree. In another thread I used Nolan Ryan as an example of using certain stats to question his HOF status (for the record I of course think he is a 1st ballot HOF).

Nolan Ryan had 9 seasons where he was a 500 or worse pitcher and he never won a CY Young award. Blyleven also had a much better K/BB ratio.

You really have to look at the whole picture. All Star games and Cy Young awards are a bit overrated IMO. Marichal never won a Cy Young award!!!!

[bigtrain]

I wish that we could turn back the clock ,take the politics out of it and make the HOF for just the immortals of the game. We can't. Like it or not, the HOF is not the Hall of Immortals and hasn't been since almost the beginning. There are a lot of players enshrined who were just very, very good, not great. We could all rattle off a dozen or more questionable selections and I don't say this to start a debate about any one of them. Tinker, Evers, Chance and Pennock inducted in the 40s. Wallace, Maranville, Schalk in the 50s. Rixey, Faber, Grimes, Hoyt, Haines, Marquard, Hafey, Lindstrom, George Kelly, etc. My point is that although Blyleven would not have gotten my vote, his election does not dilute the HOF. That was done long ago. Blyleven was a very, very good pitcher and its hard to argue with 60 shutouts.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Blyleven was a very, very good pitcher and its hard to argue with 60 shutouts.

60 Shutouts is impressive. He get's my vote just on that.

[oldjudge]

Barry--Why so much emphasis on strikeouts? An out is an out. If you are a ground ball pitcher with a 3.50 ERA are you any different than a strikeout pitcher with a 3.50 ERA?