SOT Holy Crap the Phillies Got Cliff Lee- Best Starting 4 Pitchers Ever??

#1 12-14-2010, 05:43 PM

I must confess that I don't follow baseball today as much as I did in the 1960s and 1970s, and I know it's a different era with 5-man rotations and the big emphasis on offense - but I'd sure like to know what I'm missing with regards to Lee et al. When I look at the numbers, I see these 5 guys started 154 combined games last year, had a combined record of 67-49, and their teams won a combined 89-65 in their starts. That's really good, but is it historically great? Why would these guys all win 20 games next year? Synergy? Momentum? Are the Phillies offensively and/or defensively better than the support these guys had a year ago?

I also don't get the Lee hysteria. He's been in the majors for 9 years, and only twice has won more than 14 games. In the last 5 years, he had one terrific Cy Young season; in the 4 years wrapped around that one, he was 45-41, and his teams were a combined 54-57 in his 111 starts. He's given up more than a hit an inning for his career, and minus his Cy Young season his career ERA is over 4.00.

I know he's renowned for his post-season pitching, but that's just 10 total starts over two seasons, and the most recent 2 starts were bombs. He was a spectacular 4-0, 1.49 in 2009, then a less spectacular 3-2, 2.78 in 2010.

If we're evaluating this new rotation on the strength of the 4th and 5th starters, I guess it ranks (potentially) pretty high; if evaluated on combined or average performance, I think there are dozens throughout history that probably rank ahead of it (maybe even including Spahn, Sain, Rain, Rain and Rain).

David R · #2 12-14-2010, 06:12 PM

I know I am biased because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area but I still like the Giants rotation better. I would take Lincecum and Cain over any of the Phillies starters and I think Bumgarner is not far behind.

Fred · #3 12-14-2010, 06:59 PM

With Lee the Phillies have the best current staff around in either league... just incredible to put him in with Doc and Oswalt (not that Hamels sucks).

What about Hughes, Melton, Johnson and Hoerst? Now that was an awesome staff!

cdn_collector · #4 12-14-2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I know I am biased because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area but I still like the Giants rotation better. I would take Lincecum and Cain over any of the Phillies starters and I think Bumgarner is not far behind.

I am so blown away by this I don't even which angle to settle on. I can only assume that you're taking this position because you guys won the World Series this year. I completely understand your position on Lincecum, the kid is a stud [although I'll admit I was super excited to see him pitch against the Cubs this summer and am still disappointed at how badly he got pasted]. To say that you'd take Cain over Halladay, though, blows me away. I'm trying to tell myself that it's because I'm a life long Jays fan [basically synonymous with Halladay fan], but taking Cain over Halladay would be like me insisting on bringing Pat Borders out of retirement rather than having to settle for Buster Posey.

Regards,

Richard.

David R · #5 12-15-2010, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdn_collector

I am so blown away by this I don't even which angle to settle on. I can only assume that you're taking this position because you guys won the World Series this year. I completely understand your position on Lincecum, the kid is a stud [although I'll admit I was super excited to see him pitch against the Cubs this summer and am still disappointed at how badly he got pasted]. To say that you'd take Cain over Halladay, though, blows me away. I'm trying to tell myself that it's because I'm a life long Jays fan [basically synonymous with Halladay fan], but taking Cain over Halladay would be like me insisting on bringing Pat Borders out of retirement rather than having to settle for Buster Posey.

Regards,

Richard.

Richard,
Halladay is great, no doubt. But I think Cain is one of the most underrated starters in baseball. The Giants have not given him much run support and the bullpen has let him down consistently his whole career. He is six or seven years younger than Halladay, has a similar career ERA, and gives up fewer hits and strikes out more batters per nine innings than Halladay. For next season I would take him as a starter on my staff over Halladay. Time will tell whether that would be a good decision.
Best,
David R

Rickyy · #6 12-15-2010, 02:02 AM

Great get for the Phillies for sure... on paper they look very formidable and all those guys are battle tested too and definitely makes them a favorite...but nothing is guaranteed...look at Maddox, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery...that great staff was together for a good run but they only won one title... one good point too.. comparing SF and Phila staff....Phillies bullpen is still not as strong as the Giants...although I really like Ryan Madson.

David W · #7 12-15-2010, 07:18 AM

I'll take the Cardinal big 3 for next year over the Phillie 3.

Wainright, Carpenter, and Garcia all are as good as Oswalt, Lee, and Haladay.

The overlooked guy is Hamels, a pretty good 4th starter.

We will see if he is the 4th starter by year end, I wouldn't be surprised if he is better than Lee and Oswalt.

cdn_collector · #8 12-15-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Richard,
Halladay is great, no doubt. But I think Cain is one of the most underrated starters in baseball. The Giants have not given him much run support and the bullpen has let him down consistently his whole career. He is six or seven years younger than Halladay, has a similar career ERA, and gives up fewer hits and strikes out more batters per nine innings than Halladay. For next season I would take him as a starter on my staff over Halladay. Time will tell whether that would be a good decision.
Best,
David R

Fair enough, David, I can't argue too much with that. When you talk about lack of run support, Halladay suffered that in spades with Toronto. Curiousity will force me to compare their early statistics to see how they stack up. That's probably a more fair way of looking at this.

Lastly, since I made my disappointment known about the one Lincecum start I got to see, I should also acknowledge that on that same trip that I saw Lincecum, I watched Cliff Lee pitch at Oakland, and then watched the Jays play in Anaheim. Including the Skydome [I will not call it the Rogers' Centre!], I have been to four stadiums and AT&T is my hands down favourite! Great building, great baseball environment, great fans.

Regards,

Richard.

tbob · #9 12-15-2010, 06:03 PM

Hard to believe Cliff Lee was the #3 pitcher on his collegiate team. Of course numbers 1 and 2 never made it beyond AA. I used to love to watch Lee pitch in college, I always thought he was underrated.
I think Cashman forgot to factor in Lee is an Arkansas kid and having his wife spat on and having obscenities hurled on her by drunk, obnoxious big city New York fans is something that certainly didn't help his case. Right on the heels of this, Cashman comes out and says Greinke does not have the right makeup to pitch in New York City, alluding to the fact Zach has had bouts with anxiety disorders in the past, so the Yanks aren't interested. Wow, winning friends and influencing people

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