Shoeless Joe Jackson

[Matt]

I don't recall the conclusive evidence he had that Joe participated in the fix. His .375 BA in the Series certainly wouldn't lead you to believe so.

[mintacular]

Again, I have not studied this issue at any length but you would think that Burns would've mentioned some "debate" to this issue but instead it seems (according to Burns) 99% certain Joe was in for the first few games but then maybe changed course midway through the series (when the $ wasn't dlvd) and tried to win the series albeit it too late.

According to the Burns version Joe's wife said it was a horrible thing and my impression was that Jackson never really denied his involvement...So I guess I don't really want to debate the facts of the case per se but more why would you want to own cards of this guy?

Are his cards popular because...

1. There is dispute over whether Jackson was involved
2. His #'s are so huge it doesn't matter
3. Name recognition due to the scandal
4. Other

[fkw]

Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Smokey Joe Wood "fixed" games too, and Pete Rose bet on baseball................. and people LOVE to collect their cards too.

I like Jackson for what he did on the field, stat wise.

plus he doesnt have that many cards because of the Era he played in.... just after T206 and before E121...... Not many cards in the teens.

I also like Barry Bonds for what he did between the lines too.

My favorite players are guys that dominated at throwing the ball, hitting the ball, catching the ball, and running the bases....
very simple

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by fkw

I also like Barry Bonds for what he did between the lines too.

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

I'm no Barry Bonds fan, but in terms of cheating I'd say he couldn't hold a candle to Cobb or some of the great dirty ballplayers of the deadball era, where spiking, punching, rubbing the ball with shoe polish, mud, spit, vaseline, sandpaper, etc., holding on to guy's belts as they tried to steal bases, slugging them in the gut as they ran by, etc... the one-umpire days of baseball were the dirtiest, most dishonest, ugliest baseball, filled with the most cheating ever seen, no question. The simple reason was, there was only one umpire and they could get away with it.

MLB basically tacitly approved of steroids until they were widespread, and you can bet that many players of bygone eras would be juiced if they would have played in the steroids era! That doesn't make any of this okay, but you have to keep it all in perspective that cheating in sports isn't some kind of new low for humanity, its always been there and maybe always will be.

[glchen]

Out of curiosity about Joe Jackson since I haven't been following the hobby that long, did the value of his cards explode after the movie "Field of Dreams?" Basically, I'm wondering if that very popular movie had any effect on the value of his cards, where people wanted to collect him more.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by glchen

Out of curiosity about Joe Jackson since I haven't been following the hobby that long, did the value of his cards explode after the movie "Field of Dreams?" Basically, I'm wondering if that very popular movie had any effect on the value of his cards, where people wanted to collect him more.

Both "Eight Men Out" and "Field of Dreams" came out during the baseball card boom of the late 80s. Jackson's cards grew in value quite a bit at that time. It would be hard to isolate a percentage of that value due to one of the movies, but it certainly contributed.

[fkw]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

Haha

Pitchers throwing to Bonds, Sosa etc. were jacked on 'roids too..... even field IMO

Screw Mickey Mantle, Aaron, Maris and the rest of them too, they were "jacked up" daily on Greenies (Amphetamines)

Didnt want to get into this but Lajoie, Wagner and that crew did Coke to "get up" for games daily too.
Every Era had its performance enhancers, and restricters

The All Time HR Single Season and Career Leader, Mr. Bonds still had to hit that ball.... and he did it Very Well !

[Bridwell]

Shoeless Joe's cards are vastly overpriced, in my opinion. I don't own any, and don't plan to.

Shoeless Joe has the perfect combination of hype: He's been immortalized in movies, had a great nickname, had some awesome talent and had a train wreck of a career. He was famous and infamous.

He was also left out of a lot of major card sets. So he's high demand in the sets he is in.

[rhettyeakley]

Pat, all of the "Black Sox" have one thing going for them, notoriety. For better or for worse we all know their names and they are a known entity. Compare that with your average "common" and it is no surprise that one would rather have a card of Swede Risberg or Hap Felsh than Chick Fewster or George Dauss. That novelty factor over the years has turned a lot of people to collecting them specifically. Now, collecting Black Sox cards has become one of the most popular niche collection out there.

When I first becan collecting pre-war there was only a slight premium for the Eddie Cicotte & Chick Gandil's versus a common in the T206 set--today that gap has widened significantly.

-Rhett

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by fkw

Haha
Screw Mickey Mantle, Aaron, Maris and the rest of them too, they were "jacked up" daily on Greenies (Amphetamines)

Greenies do not make you hit the ball 100 ft. further, grow your body to the size of a professional wrestler or throw a ball 10-15 mph faster. The sad thing about Bonds and the others is that they were very talented before the drugs. Bonds may very well have broken the record clean, but we'll never know because he chose his path to artificially enhanced fame. Stop protecting these clowns, plenty of guys are worth our admiration that didn't go that way, we all know which ones did and which ones didn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe he was innocent too.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Stop protecting these clowns, plenty of guys are worth our admiration that didn't go that way, we all know which ones did and which ones didn't.

We do??

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mintacular

According to the Burns version Joe's wife said it was a horrible thing and my impression was that Jackson never really denied his involvement...So I guess I don't really want to debate the facts of the case per se but more why would you want to own cards of this guy?

Joe denied his involvement until the day he died, so I believe your premise is flawed. Hypothetically, if a great player was completely innocent, yet was banned anyway, wouldn't that make for a compelling reason to collect his cards? Your question presumes his guilt which leaves you with not understanding his popularity.