Insights into probable T206 uncut sheets

[mkdltn]

I am not sure about the 19 inch press track measurement. That might be the measurement for a proving press.

My research leads me to believe that a HOE NO.4 or HOE NO.5 flatbed stop cylinder lithographic press was likely used to produce the T cards. I found an article in an electrical engineering magazine from 1897 describing the new facility that ALC moved into after consolidation. This is approximately 12 years before production of the T206 cards. On the picture of the sixth floor layout posted below there are 30 lithographic presses. I believe the article mentions that this is one of three floors filled with presses. At the time a HOE NO.4 press would cost anywhere from 3000 to 5000 dollars. That would be a capital investment of 120,000 1897 dollars, That is very roughly about 3 and a half million dollars in todays money. (That is very much an approximation because the inflation calculator only goes back to 1914) the point being that I think that ALC would have squeezed every bit of use out those presses and to think that they would still be in functioning 12 to 15 years after installation is not beyond possibility.

The bed of the HOE presses is also posted in image 3. these dimensions lead me to believe that the sheets could have been much likely larger than you would think. The HOE No. 5 could use a 36x52 in stone or plate. Schmidt litho also used similar presses.

[martin neal]

This info may be of some use to the braintrust of Net 54. Hopefully, it will be for the T205 collectors and maybe it can shed some light on both the T205 and T206 production process. I once purchased a large collection of 167
T205s, 20 T210s and nearly 500 T206s. I was told that the collection came from a collector who amassed these cards during the time they were being released. The T206s seemed to be a collection of someone who was trying to put the set together, the T210s were all from the series 2 and series 8. However, the T205s contained a high concentration of duplicates. I won't make any assumptions, but it might show which T205s were printed on a single sheet and if there is a correlation between the T205 and T206 printing process, someone may gain some insight on how many T206s were printed on a T206 sheet. 167 cards with only 80 players represented.

T205s

3 Austins
1 Barry
3 Bates
2 Becker
3 Bell
3 Bridwell
5 Mordacai Brown
2 Carrigan
3 Chance
2 Chase
1 Collins mouth closed
1 Criger
4 Corridon
1 Crandall
3 Bergen
1 Bescher
6 Blackburn
1 Dahlen
1 Donohue
1 Delehanty
3 Downey
2 Dygert
3 Elberfield
2 Evans
1 Evers
1 Fletcher
2 Gardner
2 Graham boston
2 Hartzel
1 Herzog
1 Hoblitzell (cin)
2 Huggins
2 T Jones
1 Karger
4 Knight
1 Konetchy
2 Krause
2 Kroh
4 A Latham
2 Leach
2 Lobert
4 Lord
2 Mattern
1 McConnell
2 McIntyre
2 Milan
4 Moran
1 Moran (stray line)
1 Mullin
2 Murphy
1 Needham
4 OLeary
4 Olmstead
4 Parent
1 Paskert
3 Payne
2 Pelty
2 Phelps
1 Phillippe
1 Quinn
3 Reulbach
3 Richie
1 Schaeffer
1 Schlei
2 Schulte
3 Shean (boston)
1 Sheckard
1 Smith
1 Steinfeldt
1 Stone
1 Sweeney
1 Tannehill
1 Titus
5 Wallace
1 Wolter
4 Wheat
1 Wilhelm (missing R)
1 Wiltse
2 White
1 Wilson
1 Speaker

[judsonhamlin]

Ted - I agree that the vast majority of card series/sets can be broken down into multiples of 12. Any thoughts on the 460 only series of 48 being produced on four differernt sheets? Are there any miscuts that might provide some clues as to the sheet(s)?
I might guess that all but three of the Giants came off of the same sheet, btw (3 of Devore, McGraw (Glove), Merkle and Schlei (bat) might likely be out if the printers tried to group background colors to ease the process).

[tedzan]

Actually......6 is the lowest common denominator evident in all the various T206 series. And, 12 cards across the sheet fits in nicely
with the printing machines of that era.

For example, the E91 cards (in 1908) were printed on sheets of 11 cards across x 3 rows down.

In my simulated 460 series sheet, I arranged the cards alphabetically. However, most likely the 48 subjects were organized by teams,
and/or arrangements that facilitated inking.

So, your guesses are good ones.


Regards ole friend,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Regarding your........
" The magic number for the T206 sheets is not 48 but rather 34. The evidence to back that up is strong.

The Southern League group was 48 however only 34 were printed in the initial run of the Brown Hindu set.

The Brown Hindu set has a confirmed number of 102 total. 34 x 3 = 102

The Coupon Type 1 set has a total of 68. 34 x 2 = 68 "


1.....The OLD MILL or PIEDMONT versions of the Southern League (SL) series clearly consist of 48 cards. The initial printing of the SL series coincided
with the initial Brown HINDU press runs and included only 34 SL cards. These SL cards were most likely printed on a 36-card sheet (or 48-card sheet).
In any event, Major Leaguer's cards (or Double-Prints of the some of the SL cards) were included to fill out these sheets.

It is apparent in the design structure of the T206 set, that 6 is the lowest common denominator. You cannot dismiss this fact, as it is evident through-
out the various T206 series. The make-up of each of the 5 series (150, 350, 350/460, 460, Southern League) is divisible by 6. Furthermore, this factor
is evident in the sub-series (150-only, super-prints, horizontal cards, etc.) This is not a mere coincidence, it was by design.
And my friend, 6 does not factor into 34. I don't see "34" as being any kind of a "magic number" in the production of T206's. The number 34 only exists
with the initial Brown HINDU run of the SL cards.

Incidently, regarding Brown HINDU cards, there are 105 confirmed Major Leaguer cards (not 102).


2.....The 1910 Coupon set consists of 48 Major Leaguer (ML) cards and 20 SL cards. As you know, the 48 ML subjects are derived from the 350-only
Series. Now, I think it has been established (and you'll agree) that the FRONTS of the T206 sheets were printed first. Blank-backed cards of T206's
with "wet ink transfers" of fronts have confirmed this.
So, the American Litho. Co. (ALC) stocked these pre-printed sheets of T206's; and, when an order was received from the various Tobacco Factories,
ALC would then print that brand on the backs of these sheets. Then ship the completed T206's to that respective factory.

Circa Spring of 1910, orders arrived from the ATC's newly acquired COUPON Tobacco Company. ALC grabbed some 48-card blank-backed sheets during
the printing of their 350 series ML cards; and, printed the "COUPON" backs on them. Similarly, ALC grabbed some sheets of blank-backed SL cards and
selected 20 - SL subjects, representing the Southern Association, and printed the "COUPON" backs on them. Multiple sets of these 68 cards were then
shipped to Factory #3 in Louisiana to be inserted in the COUPON cigarette packs.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Great topic TedZ. Where were the cards cut down from the sheet into the singles? The ALC or the factories?

Also, this thread reminded me of a thread fellow board member Jantz started awhile back where he made some very convincing discoveries regarding similarities between certain wet sheet transfers and the 12 card possible T206 sheet. I'll try to add link below......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=T206+sheets

Clayton

[tedzan]

I would say that the cards were cut at ALC for the following reasons......

1.....ALC was in the business of producing high quality lithographs. The T-factory's were in the business of manufacturing & packaging tobacco products.

2.....It was easier to ship stacks of individual cards (rather than uncut sheets).....which would have been subject to damage.

3.....Finally, if the cards were cut at the Factory, there would have been a higher probability of finding uncut sheets of T206's these past 100 years.

And then, I might be wrong about this, but that's how I see it.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted I am going to politely disagree with just about everything in your last post directed at me.

Originally Posted by tedzan

1.....The OLD MILL or PIEDMONT versions of the Southern League (SL) series clearly consist of 48 cards. The initial printing of the SL series coincided
with the initial Brown HINDU press runs and included only 34 SL cards. These SL cards were most likely printed on a 36-card sheet (or 48-card sheet).
In any event, Major Leaguer's cards (or Double-Prints of the some of the SL cards) were included to fill out these sheets.

Yes, the Southern League group consists of 48 cards but ALC made the decision to reduce the number printed in the brown Hindu print run to 34. All 34 of these images were printed on one sheet and the Brown Old Mill cards back this up. If there was room for 36 front images why only print 34? In later print runs of Piedmont 350 and Old Mill southern league cards the sheets front image combinations could have and more than likely were different.

Originally Posted by tedzan

It is apparent in the design structure of the T206 set, that 6 is the lowest common denominator. You cannot dismiss this fact, as it is evident through-
out the various T206 series. The make-up of each of the 5 series (150, 350, 350/460, 460, Southern League) is divisible by 6. Furthermore, this factor
is evident in the sub-series (150-only, super-prints, horizontal cards, etc.) This is not a mere coincidence, it was by design.
And my friend, 6 does not factor into 34. I don't see "34" as being any kind of a "magic number" in the production of T206's. The number 34 only exists
with the initial Brown HINDU run of the SL cards.

I don’t think there is any pattern in the T206 set of the number 6 that I have seen that is anything more than coincidence to the point you’re trying to make. Yes there are six super prints and six horizontal cards but that number has nothing to do with the makeup of a T206 sheet that I am aware of. It’s just several incidences of the number six within a huge set. In large amounts of data false patterns are often found but are otherwise meaningless. It's called apophenia.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Incidently, regarding Brown HINDU cards, there are 105 confirmed Major Leaguer cards (not 102).

My confirmed list is at 102. If and when I see the other 3 I will gladly add them. Until I do I will admittedly be a little skeptical that they exist.

Originally Posted by tedzan

2.....The 1910 Coupon set consists of 48 Major Leaguer (ML) cards and 20 SL cards. As you know, the 48 ML subjects are derived from the 350-only
Series. Now, I think it has been established (and you'll agree) that the FRONTS of the T206 sheets were printed first. Blank-backed cards of T206's
with "wet ink transfers" of fronts have confirmed this.
So, the American Litho. Co. (ALC) stocked these pre-printed sheets of T206's; and, when an order was received from the various Tobacco Factories,
ALC would then print that brand on the backs of these sheets. Then ship the completed T206's to that respective factory.

Circa Spring of 1910, orders arrived from the ATC's newly acquired COUPON Tobacco Company. ALC grabbed some 48-card blank-backed sheets during
the printing of their 350 series ML cards; and, printed the "COUPON" backs on them. Similarly, ALC grabbed some sheets of blank-backed SL cards and
selected 20 - SL subjects, representing the Southern Association, and printed the "COUPON" backs on them. Multiple sets of these 68 cards were then
shipped to Factory #3 in Louisiana to be inserted in the COUPON cigarette packs.

This theory isn’t plausible as Coupon Type 1’s were printed on a different stock. The Coupon Type 1 was a set comprised of its own unique front image combinations consisting of 68 cards.

One day Ted you're going to allow me to change your opinion on something regarding this set.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Circa Spring of 1910, orders arrived from the ATC's newly acquired COUPON Tobacco Company. ALC grabbed some 48-card blank-backed sheets during
the printing of their 350 series ML cards; and, printed the "COUPON" backs on them. Similarly, ALC grabbed some sheets of blank-backed SL cards and
selected 20 - SL subjects, representing the Southern Association, and printed the "COUPON" backs on them. Multiple sets of these 68 cards were then
shipped to Factory #3 in Louisiana to be inserted in the COUPON cigarette packs.

The second part of this bit makes no sense from a production standpoint if I'm understanding it correctly.

They took 48 card sheets of SL players and printed coupon backs on 20 of them? Leaving 28 cards blank or printing some other back on them at the same time or discarding more than half of each sheet? It's possible, but the first option of leaving some blank would leave them with a smaller sheet to print backs on later - a big nuisance. Multiple backs on the same sheet would be possible, and they could probably handle it, but there's always a big possibility of getting the brands mixed up.
Discarding more than half the sheet would be very unlikely. That percentage of waste wouldn't be tolerated unless the customer paid for the whole sheet.

Steve B

[tedzan]

OK folks, check this out......


SERIES..................CARDS

150-only...................12

150/350..................144

350........................270

460..........................48

So. Lge.....................48

....................total = 522


Furthermore, within these Series are the following sub-sets......

Super-Prints = 6 cards

Horizontal designs = 6 cards

Texas Leaguers. = 6 cards

350/460 Series (design intent) = 66 subjects
Note....5 cards are 460 series No-Prints (due to retirements, or trades at the time of printing)


It is obvious that the number of cards in each of the Series is divisible by 6. Therefore, did 6
factor into the design of the T206 set ?

Or, is it just mere coincidence ?

We report....you decide ? ?



TED Z

[barrysloate]

I've never once used apophenia in a sentence. Good word.

[NYHighlanderFan]

And then there are the American Beauty cards which are narrower than the other brands because of the old theory they were inserted into 8-packs.

[Jantz]

One interesting point I would like to add to this thread is that over the last 3 years I have seen 16 T206s with two different player's names on the same card. All 16 cards were from either the 150/350 group or 350 only group.

Two of these cards were of Lundgren(Cubs) and the names on the top were of Doolin and Ball(NY).

Also, Cicotte's name has appeared on the top of two different cards. One was on a card of Spade and the other of Abbaticchio(Brown). The latter could lead us to believe that the cards were not arranged alphabetically.

I have yet to see a two different name T206 from the 350/460 or 460 only groups. If a board member has one, I would sure like to see a scan of it.

As far as the 460 only group, Clayton has posted a link (post #17) to some of my research on that group.

By the way, Thank you Clayton for doing that.

Great thread topic Ted!


Jantz

[tedzan]

American Lithographic employed various size presses as a function of the size of the job they were printing. The press in your scan was used to print
their large size projects (e.g., advertising signs, show posters, etc.)

For smaller projects such as greeting cards, postcards, tobacco packs & boxes, and tobacco cards....it's my understanding they used a 19-inch press.

There exists an uncut sheet of PIEDMONT packs that is sized 17" x 33". It's the closest item we have that suggests the type of sheet that the T206's
were printed on. It's evident that the width of this sheet was trimmed a couple inches, which would be consistent with the 19" track that I've noted.


Lastly, if you don't mind....I will cite what you previously posted in another thread......

" 2. I think comments have been made on the vivid colors which is indicitive of an image that has not "suffered" through the transfer process and the
wear associated with a large press run. It looks like something run from the original art stone or plate.

3. Another aspect is the dead on register. This was likely run by one person on a small press, one small sheet at a time. "


AND, I AM IN FULL AGREEMENT WITH THESE STATEMENTS OF YOURS.


TED Z

[Matt]

Tim & mkdltn - fantastic, well thought out, posts. Ted - great discussion you've started.

[tedzan]

Sorry to differ with you guys. But, the SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #649 sub-set consists of 35 subjects.
I put this sub-set together years ago, and there are 35 cards in it. I've sold many of them since. However,
if you still think that there are only 34 cards, then consider the following......

Scot Reader's 20,000 cards survey indicates the following sampling......

Samples....Subject

4.............Alpermann
2.............Bates
2.............Bransfield
3.............Bresnahan (portrait)
3.............JJ Clarke (Cleveland)
5.............G. Davis (Chicago)
0.............H. Davis (A's).................(I've had 1 and seen 1)
2.............Delehanty (Washington)
1.............Ewing
1.............Gilbert
2.............Goode
1.............Griffith (portrait)
5.............Johnson (portrait)
2.............Tom Jones (St Louis)
3.............Killian (pitching)
3.............Lajoie (throwing)
2.............Lake (New York)
4.............Liebhardt
2.............Manning (batting)
6.............Marquard (hands down)
6.............Mathewson (white cap)
1.............McIntyre (Brooklyn))
2.............McQuillan (ball in hand)
1.............Nicholls (hands on knees)
1.............O'Leary (portrait)
2.............Owen
4.............Pastorius
6.............Powers
2.............Ritchey
0.............Schlei (catching)...........(I've had 1 and seen 2)
2.............Schmidt (throwing)
3.............Sheckard (no glove)
0.............Spencer.......................(I've had 1 and seen 1)
1.............Wagner (bat on left)
3.............Wilhelm (hands at chest)



TED Z