1919 Reds Pennant

perezfan · #1 09-13-2010, 02:21 PM

MUCH higher than I thought it would go as well...

I get the lore and history behind it, but (to me) it just wasn't very attractive. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

GoldenAge50s · #2 09-13-2010, 02:44 PM

I think part of the allure of "folk art" is the innocent crudeness of an amateur creator & the "one-of-a-kind" aspect of owning it.

perezfan · #3 09-13-2010, 02:52 PM

Here's a very similar Babe Ruth Pennant (purportedly from 1928) that's been running on ebay forever. It looks to be made by the same people/same company that did the 1919 Reds Pennant.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Babe-Rut...item3ef8632a16

Same material, same stenciling, same stars, same style. Is it conceivable that the same people were making these pennants over a 9 year span? These look rather cheap and even home-made, and I am a bit suspicious about the "epic" subject matter for both.

Babe Ruth and the 1919 Reds are two pretty "heavy" subjects.... Coincidence? You don't ever encounter this style of pennant, and two have now popped up on ebay. Between REA, Hunts. Lelands, Mastro, Heritage and SCP... you'd think that just one other legit example would have surfaced over the years (especially if the people making these were in business for over a decade).

Just this week, we've had a misrepresented 1915 Negro League Pennant, 2 completely bogus Tigers "Franken-pennants" and now these. So I'm a bit suspicious as to the origins. The 1928 Ruth and 1919 Reds could be real/could be fantasy.... they do appear old. Would love to hear other peoples' thoughts on the matter.

baseballart · #4 09-13-2010, 03:04 PM

Mark

I have no expertise in pennants (and in little else, for that matter). One point on the pennant is that the auctioneer was also offering a beat up copy of Ellard's Baseball in Cincinnati, 1908. This probably doesn't amount to much, but could be an indication they came from a collection of that era (conversely, I guess they could have come from someone who purchased both in 1980).

Edited to add: looking at that Babe Ruth pennant would certainly give me pause before I bid on the Reds one.

Max

perezfan · #5 09-13-2010, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baseballart

Mark

I have no expertise in pennants (and in little else, for that matter). One point on the pennant is that the auctioneer was also offering a beat up copy of Ellard's Baseball in Cincinnati, 1908. This probably doesn't amount to much, but could be an indication they came from a collection of that era (conversely, I guess they could have come from someone who purchased both in 1980).

Edited to add: looking at that Babe Ruth pennant would certainly give me pause before I bid on the Reds one.

Max

That is a positive sign... but not iron-clad evidence of authenticity, as you say. Could just be consigned from a Reds collector who bought the pennant on faith...

If the 1919 Reds Pennant is good, then someone should jump on that Ruth Pennant (a real bargain by comparison!)

murphusa · #6 09-13-2010, 08:55 PM

the Yankees did not have numbers on their 1928 Uniforms

GoldenAge50s · #7 09-13-2010, 09:52 PM

Good catch Murph, and I think the Ruth pennant is not even close to the Cincy pennant in finished quality, however crude that the Cincy is.

rhettyeakley · #8 09-13-2010, 11:00 PM

They both look terrible and artificial to me. It looks like the stencilling was done yesterday and the wear is a little over the top. Red flags all over the place. I hope nobody here paid too much for that Reds pennant.
-Rhett

perezfan · #9 09-14-2010, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Good catch Murph, and I think the Ruth pennant is not even close to the Cincy pennant in finished quality, however crude that the Cincy is.

Regarding the Ruth and the 1919 Reds Pennants... Look closer...

The overall style of the pennants, the shape of both (stubby- not elongated), the thin felt, the stenciled font style (every letter matches up), the stars, and even the red felt strip on the left side are all the same. When have you ever seen other pennants like this with identical font and stenciled stars, combined with a poorly applied central image (that is neither stenciled or screened on like the remainder of the pennant).

If you propped up the Ruth Pennant (at a more direct angle to the camera), the shape would be identical to the 1919 Reds. It is laying flatter in the photo, thus skewing the shape a bit. Other known pennants of the era are more elongated than these matching examples. Look at the stenciled lettering. The "H" is crossed 3/4 towards the top on both examples. The "R"s are identical. So are the "N"s and the "A"s and the "E"s... all identical in style.

Now that Murphusa has exposed the 1928 Ruth as being a fake/fantasy piece (based on the "3" on his back)... I do not envy the guy who spent over $3K on the 1919 Reds Pennant. I would be extremely nervous, as these two pennants are far too similar not to be related.

And what are the odds that both would pop up on ebay around the same time? In the past 20 years, why have no others (of this distinct style) ever been featured in ANY of the major Catalogue Auctions? Way too coincidental for my taste...

If the winning bidder of the Reds Pennant is reading this, you might want to file a dispute before it's too late. Ebay has an excellent new Buyer Protection Program that can effectively protect you.

Hope this is helpful.

baseballart · #10 09-14-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baseballart

Mark

I have no expertise in pennants (and in little else, for that matter). One point on the pennant is that the auctioneer was also offering a beat up copy of Ellard's Baseball in Cincinnati, 1908. This probably doesn't amount to much, but could be an indication they came from a collection of that era (conversely, I guess they could have come from someone who purchased both in 1980).

Edited to add: looking at that Babe Ruth pennant would certainly give me pause before I bid on the Reds one.

Max

Well, at least the seller's 1908 Baseball in Cincinnati was real.

Pretty frightening with these pennants. When viewed together, it's pretty clear they are not vintage.

I just hope people stay away from artificially aged reproductions of baseball books

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