Mike O'Keeffe really hates cards today

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Mark, I suspect the forthcoming top-secret pow-wow at the National should spawn such a code of ethics and perhaps a trade association. I'm unsure if Doug and Bill will be attending but as long as Marshall and JP are leading the charge what could possibly go wrong?

Let's suppose, for sake of argument, hypothetically of course, that some auction houses condone shill bidding and that most or all of them accept a large percentage of their consignments from known or suspected card doctors. Why would we expect the same people to enforce a code of ethics?

[calvindog]

That's an easy one, Peter: because they love the hobby, don't you know?

[toppcat]

O'Keefe is just doing his job-if it helps root out hobby fraud, I am all for it!

We have been serious collectors of rare baseball memorabilia and rare high grade type cards for more than 35 years. Whilst we have only sold a select few items since the grading services became dominant players in the market, we have had five cards items that "were altered" In each case we obtained our money back. In the case of one dealer who did not want to accommodate our request, we said we would call the FBI. That solved the problem and within 48 hours we had a check and an apology note.

Whilst we have no way of proving "shill" bidding we do not that Wolfers did it,and its owner, Duane Garrett, (a long time Al Gore supporter) jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge rather than face criminal charges..

Although shill bidding and "fakes" are prevalent in every collectible arena,
it is our hope that the FBI and USPS investigation will catch the culprits; that they will be forced to pay heavy fines for their unspeakable actions, and that they will be sent away for long prison sentences.

In this way, hundreds of potential forgers and shill bidders will get the message.

Perhaps Topps can come out with a new set of Shills and Crooks- the money raised could go to support a hobby review body. We have been contacted in the past by certain government agencies with regard to our experiences with certain dealers and auction houses. We will do anything that we can to bring justice and fairness to to the collector community.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

Top dollar paid for rare, high grade type cards and rare memorabilia

[Leon]

Unfortunately, I concur with ya'lls cynicism.

this was meant towards Peter's and Jeff's comments...and of course I am concerned about the hobby but I too think the speed bump analogy is correct.

[calvindog]

Most on this thread when considering the impact on the hobby after an indictment of some of the crooks are thinking 'how will this affect prices and my investment as a whole?' Instead, consider that an indictment will a) clear out some particularly scummy dealers/auction houses principles (which will automatically reduce some fraud in the hobby); and b) act as a deterrent to some of the other scummy dealers/auction house principles who are still in operation, which will also will have a positive impact on hobbyists. Of course, our hobby is really up to the ears in cretins and some of them will not stop defrauding us until they are literally in cuffs and imprisoned -- and only stopped until they are back on the street and operating again.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

our hobby is really up to the ears in cretins

True dat!

And I hear the location of the secret meeting has now been moved to the Minneapolis airport mens' restroom. Just tap three times on the foot of the guy in the next stall to let them known you're in.

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

jeff, of course, you are hoping this will happen. but reality is most of these investors may have lost out like the housing market. here is my example: for years mastro and others have shilled up prices (alledgedly), so for say 5 years it seemed the material was holding steady and had a solid floor. now i see some of this stuff show up at REA and Heritage and the prices are down quite a bit. it could coincidence with the economy and housing market being in the cellar.

i think the scummy dealers/sellers/auction houses should be investigated and punished. the most cocky and arrogant of them will probably fall first, as most would like to see them knocked off their petastools.

everybody (or 98%) of people in this hobby/industry love the idea of funding their collections through resale of investment cards or undervalued pickups turned for a profit to buy more stuff. the reason legendary may have been able to hang in there was the opportunity for bidders to buy lots undervalued, so every dealer and savvy collector was looking for a bargain.

rand brotman

[Exhibitman]

I'd go anyway but all this crazy SH** going on almost makes up for the fact that the show is in Baltimore...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Thrill-of-the-Hunt

jeff, of course, you are hoping this will happen. but reality is most of these investors may have lost out like the housing market. here is my example: for years mastro and others have shilled up prices, so for say 5 years it seemed the material was holding steady and had a solid floor. now i see some of this stuff show up at REA and Heritage and the prices are down quite a bit. it could coincidence with the economy and housing market being in the cellar.

i think the scummy dealers/sellers/auction houses should be investigated and punished. the most cocky and arrogant of them will probably fall first, as most would like to see them knocked off their petastools.

everybody (or 98%) of people in this hobby/industry love the idea of funding their collections through resale of investment cards or undervalued pickups turned for a profit to buy more stuff. the reason legendary may have been able to hang in there was the opportunity to buy lots undervalued, so every dealer and savvy collector was looking for a bargain.

this is all fine...but you will need to put your name out here per the forum rules (concerning the assumption of shill bidding). If you don't want to do that then you need to edit your post. Again, I really, really don't care if you say what you did, or not...as everyone is responsible/liable for what they themselves say. It's only a matter of putting your name out in public, that is a forum rule, and certainly not what to, or not to, say. thanks....

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's suppose, for sake of argument, hypothetically of course, that some auction houses condone shill bidding and that most or all of them accept a large percentage of their consignments from known or suspected card doctors. Why would we expect the same people to enforce a code of ethics?

Peter--

My conclusion assumes that the current investigation(s) result in indictments. If so, my thinking (based in part on 20 years with the Justice Dep't) would be that those currently engaged in fraud would opt for self-policing over futher government intrusion into their activities. But, as with most everything else, I could be wrong.

Mark

[calvindog]

Mark, I think you'd be wrong with this group of shysters. They're the sort that while nervous that others are being investigated/indicted, breathe a sigh of relief that they're not in the crosshairs. In their minds, they can't earn a living in this business without cheating and will continue to do so until stopped. Any purported claim of self-policing is just an effort to keep authorities off their backs. It's the proverbial fox guarding the henhouse.

[barrysloate]

Self policing doesn't work at all.

[mark evans]

I defer to you guys, who I respect as much as anyone in the hobby.

Mine should have been characterized as more of a hope than a prediction.

Mark