Shoeless Joe Jax DIVERSION, why isn't he in any 1911-1917 major T or E-card sets ?

[tedzan]

Please be more specific regarding your......
"To think that an American tobacco company interested in selling lots of cigarettes would snub a southern born
superstar because of Southern prejudice just doesn't make sense at all."

Are you referring to Cobb or Jackson ?


TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Please be more specific regarding your......
"To think that an American tobacco company interested in selling lots of cigarettes would snub a southern born
superstar because of Southern prejudice just doesn't make sense at all."

Are you referring to Cobb or Jackson ?


TED Z

Ted, I'm referring to Jackson...your theory is that he was snubbed because of Southern prejudice. I don't buy that at all when you consider they included Cobb in the set and many other southerners. Heck, they included players from the Southern League for their Southern brands. What evidence do you have that anyone at the ATC had a Southern prejudice?

[tedzan]

Do you know how many of the near 400 different players in the T206 set are from the so-called deep South ?

There are a mere 16, that represents only 4 %.

And, the questions I have regarding Cobb are limited to the HINDU backs which there are NONE !

Look, I'm not making this up....the predjudice in that era towards ballplayers from the deep South is well documented.


TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

What is the total percentage of major leaguers from the Deep South in 1909-11? I'll bet it's close to 4%.

Southern born players even with major league talent were more likely to stay in the South and play in Southern leagues...the same can be said for West Coast players staying in the PCL and NWL...sure there were some who went for the bigger money of the Major Leagues, but people were more inclined to stay close to home in the early 20th century.

I'll ask again since this is your theory...what evidence do you have that the ATC had a Southern prejudice?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Do you know how many of the near 400 different players in the T206 set are from the so-called deep South ?

There are a mere 16, that represents only 4 %.

TED Z

That's a misuse of statistics as I tried to point out yesterday.

Given the two additional players that we learned were also born in Georgia the total number of T206 players from that state are 7.

Using Ted's statistical analysis to determine bias the ATC hated New Jersey who also had 7 players in the T206 set. Neighboring Pennsylvania and New York had over 100 between them!! Why the bias against New Jersey?

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[tedzan]

You guys have misconstrued and twisted the entire gist of this thread. I know that you wont go back and
start reading it from post #1. Therefore, I'll reprise the two salient features of this thread......

(1) My original contention is......I find it quite mystifying that Joe Jax was not portrayed in any major T or E
sets during his glory years (1911-1920). American Lithograph (ALC) had his image in their 1910 OLD MILL set.
American Caramel (ACC) depicted him in their 1908 E90 set. Both these major BB card producers never again
included him in their subsequent sets.
NOTE..the 1915 E106 and the 1916 T216 issues (Kotton, MINO & Virginia Extra) are all derived from the E90
set images; therefore, it begs the question....WHY ISN"T JOE JAX IN THESE SETS ?

It is as basic as that. I did not accuse ATC of being predjudiced towards ballplayers from the "deep South".
However, it was quite strange that very few are in the T206 set. That leads us to the next mystery......

(2) The four T206 Ty Cobb cards are represented by most of their respective series tobacco advertisements.
But, none of them exist with the HINDU backs.
Furthermore, the T205 Ty Cobb was printed with 6 tobacco backs, but not the HINDU back. Perhaps, these
facts don't excite your curiosity....but, they certainly do mine. Therefore, I suggested that the Rochester, NY
factory (#649) that produced the HINDU brand for whatever reason did NOT want Cobb inserted in their cigar-
ette packs.

This is what it is. And, I simply put all this out there to encourage some meaningful discussion on these 2 topics.
Instead, I've had to put up with the usual "gotcha" game from a bunch of uninformed naysayers.

Look, the predjudice towards rookie players from the "boonies" of South Carolina (Joe Jax) or Georgia (Cobb) by
the team owners, their teammates, and the sports media of that era (circa 1900-1919) is well documented. For
example, take Connie Mack, he only scouted Colleges for his recruits, as he didn't think the coaching in the Minor
Leagues was as good as the College coaching.

Hey look guys, it wasn't just the South that was still fighting the Civil War.....it was also many in the North that
were still very bitter over the War and Southerners.

Sorry, on this lengthy reprise, but I'm at the point where I feel that it's futile to try and present some thought-
provoking topics on this forum....anymore.



TED Z

[Abravefan11]

ATC had the rights and images to print hundreds if not thousands of players BUT and this is a HUGE but that I can't seem to get you to agree with....

They did not create the 6 images needed to print the Jax image in lithograph form.

They only did this for the T206 set, and reused those same images for later sets without creating any new images.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Tim, you uninformed naysayer, stop playing gotcha.

Seriously, I thought this was a good discussion and some interesting points were raised, I am not sure why Ted is upset. EDIT And it still seems to me relevant to ask why Alex is not in any of these sets either, if the hypothesis is that Jax was snubbed due to anti Southern bias. The "not in T206" theory seems a more unifying explanation, although I am the first to admit i am uninformed.

[martyogelvie]

I like your theory Ted. No doubt their were prejudices that existed both ways. there were just as many Southerners who distrusted Northerners and its possible that Jackson didn't want to sign another contract with any more of those damn Yankees.