Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

[Peter_Spaeth]

What difference would naming names make? These guys don't sell directly, they consign, and the auction houses protect them.

[botn]

Jeff,

So shill bidding is not so easy to prove when bidder records have been destroyed. That was my point. Testimony alone does not convict.

I was not saying that there had to be a choice but pointing out it is easier to prove a card has been trimmed not that it is any less important to clean up shill bidding.

Most of us do not have subpoena power.

[smtjoy]

Interesting thread.

IMO shilling is happening a lot more than alterations, I have alone been shilled in over 10 ebay auctions in the last couple years that I know of, it was easier to tell when bidding records were not private on ebay but you can still tell today if the seller does not cover all their tracks. I was amazed at how often it happened. I can only imagine adding in all the auction houses how high that number would be. I also think the pressure of getting top prices for the consignor would be enough reason for auction houses to do it because it can only lead to more consignments down the road plus more cash for them.

That said I think alterations are a much more serious issue to the hobby. Take a guy like Scott Succor who was submitting thousands of trimmed cards to PSA, getting 2/3 of his subs turned down for that but still getting 1/3 past the graders. For one I cant believe PSA didnt do something about that as they had to know what was going on and thats just one guy. He was only doing micro trimming, what about the real experts in alterations of cards, now these scare me. The people who can take a T206 cobb 4-5 and turn it into a 7-8, now thats scary and is a reason I much prefer the lower graded cards with wear. Not really sure what can be done here because if these cards are getting past the graders, its trouble.

While people get upset and lose money on shilling, they only do so because they were willing to spend the money in the first place. I dont think most of them will be leaving the hobby but hopefully they get smarter. To me the alterations have the damage that can get people to leave the hobby, if your prized card in your collection that happens to be graded turns out to be altered, ouch. You lose money and you are left with something you do not even want.

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.

And this is exactly why Huggins and Scott is at the top of may favorites. I have never heard anything bad about them and honestly, I have never had one bad feeling that something might be wrong. I can't say that about most Auction Houses.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What difference would naming names make? These guys don't sell directly, they consign, and the auction houses protect them.

Shining a light on the people that do this sort of stuff can only be a good thing. And I suspect that anyone who knows who the card doctors are also knows which auction houses are protecting them. Shine a light and watch the cockroaches run.

[botn]

Jeff,

You need evidence and once the card makes it into the holder do you really expect the grading companies to recant their assertion that the card is anything but what the flip states? For instance one of the top grading companies asked it's supporters to send in their cards for half grade point increases and offered a written guarantee the card would either get the half grade bump or be returned as it was submitted. But that top grading company is far from the only major grading company with fleas.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff, it's just not worth it, they would get lawyers to represent them (if they don't have them already) and accuse me of defamation, and because it all goes on behind closed doors and because third party grading gives it a veneer of legitimatcy, I am not confident that I could prove it through admissible evidence even though I know it.

[onlychild]

I'm not an expert on altered cards but would appreciate learning more as to how the doctors work on alterations and, just as importantly, work with the auction house heads.

Jeff, that is a lose/lose scenario. As you know, I am a card doctor and regardless of what anyone thinks, to the best of my knowledge not one of my altered cards are in the hobby. If you try and explain in a public forum or anywhere on the net for that matter, how cards are doctored, you are just giving lessons or more ideas to the criminal aspect. Only so much can be explained, but then you get ripped for not going into enough detail. I think the best is to show what can be done and/or what to look for. One on one, would be the best way to learn and more details can be given.

I enjoy getting auction catalogs, just to see what cards IMO have been potentially altered. Of course it's impossible to tell without the card in hand (even then it can be tough) but if you have altered enough cards, you can get a pretty good idea. Just my opinion but I think it's a plague and far more prevalent than shilling. Perhaps an auction company can become more trusted if they had an internal expert checking for possible alterations...then rejecting them if discovered or suspected.

I've warned a few auction companies about cards that have or may have been altered...Mastro more than once. They either don't care or have just banned me. REA is definitely the best and most concerned...that's just not lip service by Lifson, he genuinely cares.

If I'm not mistaken haven't you been banned from Mastro/Legendary as well? We should form a club.

I don't think it happens too often that collectors buy cards from auction houses and find out they are doctored. Besides do they really want to know and face a potential large loss? It only becomes a factor or devastating when the card is outed as a fake, restored, doctored.

Then you have those who think it's perfectly alright to send a card and pay a "restorer" to remove ink spots, residue, tape etc. These are some of the same collectors that are or have been the most vocal when it comes to card alterations. It's perfectly fine if their card can get a bump or two though as long as someone else is doing it and they are paying for the service.

As Greg so perfectly stated, "The public has had many rude awakenings and just go right back to sleep." I just hope we don't wake up and discover the the root of the problem is not with the auction companies.

Okay, I've rambled enough (LOL).

Kevin

[calvindog]

Kevin, why not out the cards that you see in an auction catalog that you believe might be altered? What's the downside to that?

And I'm not surprised that Mastro would ignore your communications about altered cards; after all, they have no problem presenting altered items without full disclosure (until caught).

[onlychild]

Hummm...would be tough to out a card "I think" might be altered. Keeping in mind I have more doubts than most by the nature of my specialty. Can see where collectors might beat me with their slabs or at least give me a tasty card paper cut. Would be totally different if it could be proved though...then it would not be a problem.

Yep, even when faced with the truth Mastro just shrugged and let the auction ride...then banned me. Since it was an Americana piece, I did out it on another collectible forum. A bunch of their cards have always been questionable, as we all know.

[Fred]

What a thread... it goes from buying from Legendary to other auction houses to card doctoring, shill bidding, etc.

It makes me want to buy material graded 1 - 3 so there wouldn't be much worry about the card being doctored. Oh yeah, I buy that crap already, but not for that reason.

Maybe I'm a bit naive but I really do believe there are honest auction houses and honest individuals that hold auctions. Speaking of which... Hey Barry, when's your next auction?

[Rich Klein]

When Mr. Crandall used to post; he swore that cards in grades 1-3 were more played with (altered) than cards in 7 or higher. So don't be so sure you're safe with 1-3

Rich

[Fred]

Is nothing sacred? I can't even buy a crappy "1" card and not be concerned

Crappy condition cards have character!

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

When Mr. Crandall used to post; he swore that cards in grades 1-3 were more played with (altered) than cards in 7 or higher. So don't be so sure you're safe with 1-3

Rich

Rich- Do you think that might have been because Crandall's cards were 7s or higher and he didn't buy cards 1-3?
You'll never convince me of what he swore to because the money for 7's, 8's and 9's is exponentially so much higher and makes trimming lucrative for these cards.

[onlychild]

What a thread... it goes from buying from Legendary to other auction houses to card doctoring, shill bidding, etc.

It's all relevant.

[camlov2]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Greg/Mike: I didn't mean to use ebay as a sole example for resale. Poor resale prices in consecutive auctions for the same cards is evident as well, the only difference being lack of fraud in the latter auctions.

A lower price in a second auction doesn't mean that some type of fraud occured in the first. It is of course possible but not a given.

I would guess that many times two people bid against each other driving a price much higher then expected. Every so often the winner choses to resell quickly due to regret, need of money.....

With one of the two main bidders now out of the picture the same item is likely to sell for much less.

[Rich Klein]

Didn't you see my smiley face after my comment

But on certain cards; restoring them to 1-3 is actually an easier gig; for if you're a grading company and the card is like $1K and in bad condition; do you automatically question said card like you would a higher grade example.

And, in the 1980's, we had really good 1953 Topps Mantle fakes running around North Jersey, and the funny thing was those cards would be vg/ex and not better (I think there were some other cards as well). But the reason the fakes worked so well WAS that they were in vg/ex condition and if you were a store owner, would you think that such a card was faked?

Regards
Rich

[Exhibitman]

Good points, Kevin and Jeff.

Jeff, no surprise on the records destruction front. It is one of the gaping holes in the legal system, IMO. I'm sure you know that corporate counsel in fact create and implement record destruction policies for their companies. If done as part of a standard practice with no claims pending against them it is treated by the courts as acceptable conduct. The fact that it plays right into the hands of the crooks out there is brushed under the rug.

I did want to respond to one point about altered cards and third party graders (TPG). I can confirm one instance of TPG repurchases of bad cards: SGC bought back a bad ex-mt graded T206 Waddell portrait I owned. I had questions about the card once I got it and took it with me to the National, where I got Dave to take a look at it. He agreed it was erroneously encapsulated and immediately offered to buy it back. I understand PSA is a bitch to get any admission of error from--fortunately I've never had to go down that path personally--but I cannot even get them to fix errors in their boxing card registry checklists, and I wrote the catalog...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by camlov2

A lower price in a second auction doesn't mean that some type of fraud occured in the first. It is of course possible but not a given.

I would guess that many times two people bid against each other driving a price much higher then expected. Every so often the winner choses to resell quickly due to regret, need of money.....

With one of the two main bidders now out of the picture the same item is likely to sell for much less.

Theoretical possibilities can explain away most fraud; however, statistically when you need a 1 in 10 thing to occur 400 times in a row it becomes an impossibility. Welcome to the world of Mastro.

[onlychild]

But on certain cards; restoring them to 1-3 is actually an easier gig; for if you're a grading company and the card is like $1K and in bad condition; do you automatically question said card like you would a higher grade example.

Humm....Getting a 1-3 to a 4-5 is usually very easy, since the lower grade cards have more problems to work with and edges/corners are usually not a primary concern. Altering a card to the 7/8 range is much more difficult. It's tedious micro-type work, usually on the corners and edges, that has little room for error.

That being said IMHO there are more high grade altered cards in the auction houses because that's where the high grade cards are. I think the altered low to mid grades can be sold more efficiently on eBay. Of course, I'm referring only to graded cards. Raw cards are the wild west.

I would hope that grading companies question all cards equally and give a little extra attention to the top tier cards. I'm not really sure if that happens though.

[JamesGallo]

I will respond to this in sections.

I feel there are a handful of good auction houses out there that include but are not limited to
REA
B&L
Sloate
Old Judge
Huggins and Scott
Goodwin

I don't think I have heard anything bad about any of the above and I am sure there are a few others I can't think of right now.

That being said I will NOT bid in any Legendary auction and they have a nice group of cards for a set I am working on, but they won't get my money.

There are certain things that I being in the collectible selling business for 15+ years will never bend on and ethics are #1. If I sell something and it is not right I will make it right in whatever way is needed. Mastro/Ledgendary has made too many "mistakes". I wasn't active then nor did I bid in or consign, so I was not hurt directly, and yet still they will never get my money no matter what.

As a side note I don't know if there is anything one of a kind that I have to own, but I have passed on such items in my other collecting fields based on this same principle so if there was a card that fell into this category I have no doubt I would pass on it.

As for the shilling/card altering/restoration arguments, I am not sure which is worse, and I think it would depend on the issue at hand.

If you trim a $5 card to make it a $500, restore a card or otherwise work on it they all would impact the value. To me making something worthless into something of high value would be high on my list of worst offenses. Perhaps re-backing a card or doing some other type of alteration. The only time I have dealt with this was on a lot of high end 60's rookies cards that were trimmed in the 1990's. It is likely that they were VG or EX cards trimmed to NM. The cards still had value but there was a significant loss on funds.

I also wonder if the number of bad cards in holders is directly related to when they were graded. I know I will never buy an older PSA holder as I do feel they are better about catching alternations now then they were 10 years ago.

Shilling is something we as a bidder can't know about unless it is made public. If you are educated about something you are buying hopefully that will help you weed out potential problem cards. I looked at a card in a major auction and had doubts about one of the edges, I choose not to bid as a result and am much happier for not having to deal with potential problems. Maybe the card was ok, but I wasn't willing to take the chance and I wasn't confident enough to make a statement about the card to the auction house.

The system has a lot of problems but most areas of business do, and policing them is tough at best. I do find it insulting that Coaches Corner is still around. The FBI continues to make a big deal about fraud in this hobby yet they are still allowed to operate. To me that is a pick and choose, we are going to go after Mastro because more money is involved but CC is still allowed to operate. It's total BS and as with any crime IMO it comes down to money. If you defraud someone out of $10,000 it is not treated the same as if you got screwed out of $500,000. That isn't right but I don't ever see that changing.

I think the best thing we can hope for as far as auction house honesty is that a shake up occurs and that good people continue to deal with good houses, hopefully over time the good and stronger houses will survive and the Mastro's will fade away.

One last note is that I will give an auction house a chance to make up for their errors and mistakes, but much like life, if there are several issues or if the same issues continue, then I will no longer deal with them. At this point I have about 2-4 places I will not buy anything from and another couple that I look at with caution. Beyond that I feel that I am participating in an honest auction and until proven or even suggested otherwise I have no reason to worry.

James G

[barrysloate]

The Legendary Auction is an hour old and the Wagner is already past 100K. Don't understand that kind of bidding strategy.

[e107collector]

Does anyone happen to know what the T-206 Wagner ended in the Legendary auction?

Thanks,
Tony

[Gary Weatherhead]

In round numbers $220 K.

Best
Gary

[E93]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Good points, Kevin and Jeff.

I understand PSA is a bitch to get any admission of error from--fortunately I've never had to go down that path personally...

The one time I had a problem, it was solved very quickly. I noticed a slight problem on the back of a $7000 high grade CJ card that, in my view, was the result of alteration. I e-mailed Joe Orlando about it and sent scans. He asked me to send the card in for re-evaluation. On their analysis, they agreed with my assessment. Within 24 hours of receiving the card and upon our discussion about how to rectify the situation, he sent me a check for $7000. I could not have asked for better customer service and problem solving.

JimB

[E93]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Kevin, why not out the cards that you see in an auction catalog that you believe might be altered? What's the downside to that?

What a completely reckless idea! Kevin makes mistakes. I know this personally. How would you feel if you consigned a 10k card that you knew to be good and somebody came on a public forum claiming it was altered on the basis of a scan? The downside is completely screwing somebody in a situation that may have no wrongdoing or altered card.

In some obvious cases one can tell from a scan, but that is not usually the case with slabbed cards in major auctions.
JimB