Where have all the Cobb HINDU's gone.....?

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
" If in theory a bat off example should also exist, given the extreme rarity of all red Hindus (usually only one-two
known examples of known issues) "

I have two responses:

1....The Cobb (bat off) pose (a 350/460 series card) exists with an American Beauty 460 back; therefore, it will
not be found with a Red HINDU back.

2....You are the 2nd guy to imply that Red HINDU's are so, so rare that most subjects exist with only one (or 2)
examples.
My records of these cards indicate that most of the 41 confirmed subjects are more available than just one (or 2).

Hey guys, we need some BVG, PSA ans SGC POP reports on the Red HINDU's.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

I have no opinion of the Cobb with Red Hindu back other than to say the scan looks good to me too. But do not underestimate the skill of a paper restorer, and please be certain that there are rebacked cards residing in holders.

[E93]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I have two responses:

1....The Cobb (bat off) pose (a 350/460 series card) exists with an American Beauty 460 back; therefore, it will
not be found with a Red HINDU back.


TED Z

Ted, my friend,
Then if one would not expect a bat off/red hindu (I misread your original post - point #3 - to presume that we should expect one), and we do have a red portrait example here (with no compelling reason to believe it is not authentic and unaltered), then is there still a problem or mystery still remaining?
JimB

[Wesley]

Interesting thread. The Red Hindu Cobb that Richard posted was auctioned last May in REA. Did anyone bring this to Rob's attention?

[tedzan]

......"long time passing"....since I've seen some POP reports....for whatever they are worth....regarding T206 Cobb/HINDU cards.

Hey guys......anyone......please post PSA, SGC, or BVG ?


Regards,

TED Z

[sando69]

ted-
of the 1302 total t206 ty cobb cards graded by sgc, zero have been designated with a hindu reverse (either brown or red)!

[tedzan]

Mark S

Thanks for checking out and posting the SGC data on the T206 Cobb's.

This data certainly reinforces my "Factory #649 factor" regarding the No-Printing of HINDU Cobb's.


Best regards ole buddy, and I hope you're enjoying warm weather out there on the coast. Here in Pennsy,
we are enduring 0 degrees W/C factor. Just South of us, VA and NC are having a 12 inch snowstorm.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Do the early PSA POP reports provide data on the T206 Cobb back's ?

As I noted earlier here, it was approx. 10 years ago that a rash of professionally "re-backed" T206 star cards
were surfacing in the hobby.

We have the SGC data, how about some one posting the PSA POP report ?

And, the BVG POP report ? ?


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks for that info on PSA....I had guessed that. Not being a subscriber to PSA, though, I was not
quite sure.

So, it was Beckett that had graded the re-backed red Cobb/DRUM card ? Was that a 2nd go-around
after a prior company had graded it ? ?


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

very interesting research, as always, Ted.
what makes this issue particularly difficult is the anonymous collectors, or at least very reticent collectors, who choose to remain under the radar when they have valuable information to contribute. certainly, i understand and respect their privacy.
i know of one T206 scholar/collector who has had 2 Cobb brown hindus for around a decade now. typically, the simultaneity of his acquisition and the
rash of re-backed T206s from around that time period could raise a red flag or at least 'worry' regarding their authenticity. I use the word 'typically', because i do not believe that this esteemed T206 scholar/collector would be
fooled, even by the best. This gentleman is a card analyst,par excellence.
Therefore, from my own experience, I would agree with you--with slight nuance--that the Cobb/Hindu is the 'rarest of the rare'; in fact, I think that
counting them on one hand is all that is necessary---and it may well be that
2 fingers is plenty.
all the best,ole friend

barry

[tedzan]

Sorry that my reply to you is late, but responding to your......

" The red Hindu, red portrait Cobb above, which I remember was in a Mastro auction about ten or eleven years ago, looks
good to me. I don't see any glaring reason to suspect it is re-backed. "

Please check-out this Red HINDU card's scan, and strictly from its appearance, tell me if you suspect that it is re-backed ?

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_23.html


Incidently, this Red HINDU Matty was graded about 10 years ago, same time you saw the Red HINDU Cobb in Mastro's auction.

Is that just mere coincidence ? ......I don't think so !


Furthermore, several years ago, these two graded T206 Cobb's were sold.

Cobb (Green portrait) with a Red HINDU back

Cobb (Bat OFF) with a PIEDMONT 150 back


Jim....need I say more ? ?


Best regards,

TED Z

[Brian-Chidester]

The doctoring of cards seems to be the natural progression when the commerce side of things has deemed this series too valueable for the hoi polloi.

Not that purists don't remain, nor to say that scholarship hasn't grown since T206 became the province of the wealthy, because both have invariably happened. But isn't it the least bit ironic that Jefferson Burdick, who first gave the set its name and parameters, and got this whole hobby rolling, would today not be able to afford the very Wagner that he hoisted up as the hobby's great scarcity, given his modest income?

Michael O'Keefe and Teri Thompson's book The Card hit the nail on the head, and while we look at guys like Bill Maestro as the villains and the Rob Lifsons as the heroes, the truth is, what they have done with the vintage card market has permeated the entire market of cards, so that now even newly-produced baseball cards are out of the reaches of kids, and like Orson Welles pointed out about the fine art world in his film F for Fake (1975), holds true for us in the basball card world, as we no longer have access to the truth about our cardboard's history. It has been clouded by two slabs of plastic and a nefarious price mark-up. I'm sure many don't care, and others would call me a commie or ludite, but so be it.

[Brian-Chidester]

With regard to the Hindu Cobb card, hypothesese are being built upon hypothesese here, which is fine, but it is a stretch to say that, just because not many examples of an already-rare back exist in the grading registries or within members of the Net54 community, that none ever really existed at all.

Maybe some cards have been re-backed, but not all specimens can be disregarded, even if there are only two forthcoming. The likelihood of slabs coming off and cards being put into distilled water is low. But Mr. Zanidakis, your knowledge of T206 types is astounding. I hope I didn't derail your thread in any way.

I think my skepticism sometimes gets in the way of any progress on either side.

[barrysloate]

Brian- I am skeptical too, and I have my doubts about this Cobb with Red Hindu back. It's just a gut feeling, that's all.

[tedzan]

Now, here is the rest of this "Factory #649 story"....as it pertains to Cobb.

Some time in 1911, the American Lithographic Co. (ALC) issued their Mecca (T201) Double-folder set of 50 cards (100 subjects).

Surprise, surprise....finally, Cobb's image is on a Factory #649 card. Unbelievably though, ALC places Cobb on the flip-side of the
Crawford card. In 1911, Cobb was having the best year of his BB career....batting .420, 248 Hits, and 127 RBI's. Yet, ALC printed
Cobb on the "short side" of their Crawford/Cobb card. The "Factory #649" mystery continues.

I sold my T201 Mecca set 10 years ago (except the Johnson/Street card). Here is the flip-side of my Johnson/Street card to illu-
strate what's going on here (for anyone unfamiliar with these Mecca cards). Can anyone imagine, relegating Cobb to "secondary
status" in any BB card set ?








Would anyone like to post here F/B scans of their T201 Crawford/Cobb card ?


Thanks,

TED Z