Rare Topps Test Issues

[toppcat]

Oh yeah, the 67 Pinup Clemente Sticker-I want to compare the sig to the one in the latest Clemente thread on this board, which has a solid blue auto of similar vintage. Will try that later if I have time (may not). I am presently thinking that sticker was a one-off produced at Topps as a lark, the quality is realy to good for it to be a fake I think believe.

[docpatlv]

Dave,

I posted the Clemente sig in the other thread. Although the sig on the 67 pin-up is close, I am 99.99% certain it is not legit. I have about 12 Clemente sigs and have collected him for a long time. I did a fair amount of research on his auto too in the past, and I don't believe it's good. I have talked with other serious Clemente collectors over the years, and we've had discussions about one of Clemente's friends (associate?) who used to sign some of his mail.

I have a couple of examples similar to the one on the 67 pin-up that I purchased early on and from experience and discussions with other Clemente collectors I began to differentiate legit and non-legit. Once you've seen a significant amount of signatures, it becomes easier to pick them out.

Mike

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by docpatlv

Dave,

I posted the Clemente sig in the other thread. Although the sig on the 67 pin-up is close, I am 99.99% certain it is not legit. I have about 12 Clemente sigs and have collected him for a long time. I did a fair amount of research on his auto too in the past, and I don't believe it's good. I have talked with other serious Clemente collectors over the years, and we've had discussions about one of Clemente's friends (associate?) who used to sign some of his mail.

I have a couple of examples similar to the one on the 67 pin-up that I purchased early on and from experience and discussions with other Clemente collectors I began to differentiate legit and non-legit. Once you've seen a significant amount of signatures, it becomes easier to pick them out.

Mike

Hmmm-back to the drawing board on the sticker I guess....that's really too bad because now it's just a defaced Topps rarity. Wonder who mailed it to him for his ghost signature?

[hcv123]

I have not had the signature checked out by anyone so I do not know if opinion would leave it good or bad. That said, I HAVE had the Pin up sticker under a 20 power loop. Having been the unfortunate victim of counterfeits in the past, I took a REAL good look at the sticker - I saw nothing that would indicate to me it was a counterfeit. It has been a little while, but if my memory serves me correctly, the print was much tighter on the sticker than on an actual 67 pinup - to me indicating it would have to have been printed from an original source (How did they print these things back then?). Dave if it would help I could do a magnified high res scan of a part of it to share what I saw - even putting it next to a pin up. Probably wouldn't get to this for a while as life is a bit crazy now.

-Howard

[docpatlv]

Dave and Howard,

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. It's just that I was burned on a couple of Clemente sigs early on, and I vowed never to let it happen again.

I remember the name of Clemente's "alleged" ghost-signer, it was Phil Dorsey. It's possible this item was signed in the late 1960's by Dorsey and then the test could have been produced. I don't have the knowledge on Topps test issues that the both of you do, my opinion was only on the auto.

Here are some more of mine to compare:



Here are some that are not mine, but I saved scans:



Note the differences in how Clemente formed the letter "T", also the "Best" in Best Wishes, the formation of "b" in Roberto, the legs in the "R" in Roberto,etc. I would not bet my life on it, but like I said I have seen A LOT of Clemente autos and although there are some variances in his legit signature, they still have the same characteristics.

Mike

[toppcat]

Here's a link to my blog post on the 67 Poster Sticker (scroll down near the bottom for back scan) and a front scan for reference.

http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/se...Red%20Herrings

[hcv123]

Thank you to Mike and Dave for all the input trying to solidify an opinion. As much as I AM a self proclaimed expert on Clemente issued cards and memorabilia, I am NOT in the least bit qualified to offer an opinion on his signature. I decided years ago not to even try as the thought of forgeries was too scary. Scared to the point that I passed on an opportunity to purchase a 30+ year collection of over 100 signed Clemente items(about 18 years ago). That said, I am very familiar with Phil Dorsey ( A close friend of Clemente's )and the realtively universal thought that he signed many Clemente ghost signatures. I did not buy the pin up for the autograph. In fact, I bought it despite it. I wish it wasn't there - perhaps one day if I get a consensus of opinions that it is not good I will try to wipe it off
(Just kidding. Did I get you?) While some might disagree, imo the scarcity/potential unique status of the item far outweighs any value/added value the signature has. To end, a question, would there be some potential variation attributable to the style of pen and surface? And the conversation continues................

[tedzan]

Topps issued a limited production test issue designed in the style of their 1953 cards.





Only these 8 cards are in this set........

1......"Satchell" Paige
2......Jackie Robinson
3......Carl Furillo (picture actually Johnny Antonelli)
4......Al Rosen (picture actually Jim Fridley)
5......Hal Newhouser
6......Clyde McCollough (picture actually Vic Janowicz)
7......"Peanuts" Lowery
8......Johnny Mize

I will post the other 7 cards later.


TED Z

[ALR-bishop]

Ted
I have a set of these too. I have often wondered if there was not some sort of gag or joke involved in their production since 3 of 8 are wrong.
Al

[tedzan]

ALR

This test issue has always been a quite a mystery to me.

Why only 8 cards; and, (as you said said) how did they foul up on 3 of them ?

My understanding is that less than 200 sets were issued. Perhaps, some one on this forum
will chime in that has some knowledge of this issue.


TED Z

[onlychild]

Anyone know where I can get a sheet like this cleanly cut? Here's some incentive - I'd be willing to sell some panels if I could get it cut!!

Don't think it would be much of a problem. I cut three complete 1984 Topps Proof (encased) sets perfectly...each from a single big sheet. Just a fraction off at the start will mess up each new row, the last cards will end up OC.

Had one set graded, went from sheet to slabs with an 8.8 GPA...nothing below an 8. Global was the only one who would grade them (see below). Not sure I would feel very comfortable cutting another collectors cards though.




Kevin Saucier
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[hcv123]

Originally Posted by onlychild

Don't think it would be much of a problem. I cut three complete 1984 Topps Proof (encased) sets perfectly...each from a single big sheet. Just a fraction off at the start will mess up each new row, the last cards will end up OC.

Had one set graded, went from sheet to slabs with an 8.8 GPA...nothing below an 8. Global was the only one who would grade them (see below). Not sure I would feel very comfortable cutting another collectors cards though.




Kevin Saucier
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What did you cut them with? How did you keep them from slipping? As you can see on the sheet I want to cut, I have a lot of room for error. Thanks.