THE MONSTER - "Making Noise"

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Posted By: Phil

I have been collecting a graded T206 set for a little over 3 years now.....and it is "making a lot of noise". Here's my situation: My wife and I are having some construction done at our home and we put money away to pay for it with cash. No loan. No debt. To get it to the point we now want, we need some more money.

My two choices are:
Take out a small loan (which I really, really don't want to do)
Or
Sell my T206 set

I just finished paying off all of my credit cards last month and really enjoy not having a credit card payment. So do I know take out a loan? (Under $20,000) or sell my set?

I know most will say, hold onto the cards, but at 40% completion, I will be constantly buying more cards and then paying a loan payment at the same time.

If I decide to sell, what would be my best option? I will only sell them if I can do it as one group. I will never break it up. Right now I have 214 graded T206s. All but 2 are SGC50 (PSA4) or above. Just 2 at SGC40.

I look forward to feedback/thoughts. If anyone is interested, please email me at my work email: phil@eastcoasttrophy.com

Thanks guys! This is tough.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Why not apply for a line of credit (or two)? The interest rates are low and manageable, and you won't have to sacrifice your collection. This way, you CAN always sell the cards as a later option if absolutely necessary.

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Posted By: Phil

I pretty much know how much more money I need and I will need it all at once to finish the project, so I don't think a line of credit would give me any more benefits than a small loan.

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Posted By: leon

Sometimes life gets in the way of collecting. I am going after one very scarce set, in particular, that is going to cost a (relative) lot of money to finish. Probably close to 6 figures, or more, so I am undecided on what to do. For the moment I am just holding what I have. The thing about the monster is that, even though you put a lot of time and effort into it, you will see the cards again if you decide to sell now. You can always start again later though it could be a bit disheartening to do so. Do what makes your wife happy and you will be happy too. My wife knows my cards make me happy so she has never said to sell any. It's always been my choice. She is a great wife. Let us know how it goes. Good luck.

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Posted By: Phil

Thanks Leon. My wife is the same way. She has already told me that she doesn't want me to sell them. I just don't want to be burdened with any more debt. Plus the $200 or so I spend every month on adding to The Monster.

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Posted By: Mark L

Could you sell part of the set? If I had to raise money, I would be ok with it if I could hold on to at least some portion of my collection. If you 200 cards, maybe you could keep a favorite hall of famer (or three) and about twenty of the commons. That way you are a responsible dude and yet still in the game.

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Posted By: Phil

I still have some raw T206s....mostly my favorite commons. I would end up just getting those framed and hang them on my wall. If I am going to sell them, for me, it is all or nothing. No looking back. Maybe some day again down the road as Leon suggested.

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Posted By: Michael C

With all due respect, people who make bad choices in situations like this are a major reason why our country is in such bad shape. People wanted to remodel their kitchens, refi'ed their house to a cheaper mortgage and now can't pay their bills. They have a nice kitchen, but now the bank owns the house.

My vote is sell the cards if you want to spend new money. Don't add any more debt. They are just cards.

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Posted By: S Gross

Can you get a Home Equity loan ??
Mine is at low low low rate.


If you get a loan and don't sell your cards, HOWEVER stop buying new ones.* Then you can use that money to pay off loan. If things get a little tight here and there, then sell off a few cards here and there.




* that's a BIG however

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Posted By: JohnnyH

Maybe sell half of them, keep all the nice ones ! I would think you would get a lot more money by selling in small groups or individually. If you sold as a huge group wouldn't you take a lot less in ? Tough call, good luck !!

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Posted By: Jim VB

The answer to this comes down to your ability to manage your own finances and debt load.

As stated, the home equity loan is one option. A $20,000 loan, at 6% interest, for 15 years, costs about $170 a month to service. You can pay it off by stopping or reducing the purchase of new cards. But you have clearly stated that you are averse to incurring new debt and that's a sign that you know yourself pretty well.

However, as Johnny also stated, selling them as a group will never maximize your return.

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Posted By: Phil

In response to Michael C's statement:

"With all due respect, people who make bad choices in situations like this are a major reason why our country is in such bad shape. People wanted to remodel their kitchens, refi'ed their house to a cheaper mortgage and now can't pay their bills. They have a nice kitchen, but now the bank owns the house.

My vote is sell the cards if you want to spend new money. Don't add any more debt. They are just cards."

I guess you didn't read my entire post. My wife and I put money aside (cash) to save up for our project. We have paid for the entire project in cash. No loan. No debt. Now, we want to upgrade a few more things and will need some more money. Instead of putting everything on a credit card or taking a home equity loan, I am trying to stay with no debt by selling my cards. So, please don't put us in the same boat as people who have bought houses way over their means and defaulted, etc., etc. As I also stated, my wife and I don't owe a single penny to a credit card company and we still managed to put money aside to start this project.

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Posted By: David M

Sell them.........right here on Net54. Avoid ebay and their fees (you'll get better prices here).

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Posted By: barrysloate

Phil- I would vote for selling the cards. A collection is great but your home is more important.

If you don't need to sell all of them I would keep the best ones and sell as much as you need to from the bottom up. T206's are not hard to replace; they are plentiful and just cost money. You may have a situation down the road where you have a little extra cash and that would be a good opportunity the repurchase the ones you sold.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I would vote for selling the cards vs a loan.

Who knows, you might be able to pick them back up later at a cheaper price!?!?!

marty

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Posted By: barry arnold

I have much empathy for your situation in these most difficult of financial times. Still,since you have worked so hard toward nearing the taming of the monster and have wonderful support at home, i would suggest that you consider another alternative long and hard before letting go of your beloved collection. Obviously, you have handled your financial and family wisely and
astutely and I am sure that you will arrive at the proper decision in due course.
I still must add my favorite dictum to the discussion:
The Monster wants you to quit; don't listen to it.

I recognize full well that in your case, the Monster is one of a number of very,very important voices.

all the best,
Barry

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

What exactly is the home improvement that you guys are making? Is it really needed? Will it add much value to your home or bring you lots of happiness?

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Posted By: Claude

I'll go against the flow, I once had to sell a coin collection even though I had no choice at the time I regret every minute of it, having some debt is not an issue (especially if this improve the value of the house, look at it as an investment) the problem is having to much debt which doesn't seem to be your case.

Just my 2 cents (borrowed).

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Posted By: Donny Muth

Phil,

Are your only two options really taking out a loan or selling your T206 set? Is there anywhere else you can sacrifice to get the home remodeling you want completed without giving up your prized T206s?

Do all the upgrades really have to come at once? Or can you spread them out over some period of time?

Could you downgrade your car and save on the monthly payment (if you have one) or get some extra cash that way?

Is there anything else of value that you can sell, or go without, to be able to afford these remodeling upgrades? Big screen TV? Stereo? Golf clubs? Eliminate the movie channels on cable/dish? Drop the cell phone(or go with pre-paid perhaps)? etc?

Can you and/or your wife take on a small side job, or work a little overtime or something, to pay for the upgrades?

If you haven't done so yet, maybe you could prioritize the upgrades and figure out what are the top things you'd like to have and match that up against the $ you can come up with using various options. You may end up realizing that you can go without some of the upgrades that you perhaps originally thought you had to have.

My wife and I are in the process of getting out of debt (except for our home loan which we also plan to pay down drastically starting next summer hopefully) ourselves while also trying to look forward to getting a new house in the next 2-4 years. So, I completely understand not wanting to take on a new loan. Also remember that you have to keep some fun stuff in your life or it's kind of pointless. It sounds like your T206s are one of your outlets for relaxtion and fun. Just some ideas... good luck!

---Donny Muth

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Posted By: Richie

Keep the cards. With the money you said you are investing in cards each month put that right towards the a loan. If it becomes hard to keep up with loan payments. Then you can always sell off cards. Hopefully it doesnt and you can continue to put whole set together. Good Luck

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Posted By: Joann

Phil,

I would take out a handful of cards that you really like or maybe had the toughest time getting and then sell the rest. From your posts, it seems clear that you will feel a lot better to get it all taken care of with no debt.

So you sell the cards, get the work done, pay the contractors and ... then? Then you wake up the next morning with no debt, no monthly debt payment to impede cash flow, all the cash you finally have since you've worked hard to get rid of and avoid debt and BOOM! You start buying cards again.

Guilt free, restart the process, and it all feels good again.

Just my two cents.

Joann

(PS - and since the decision to sell them is very practical and not made from emotion, then maybe best to go about it in the most practical and least emotional way, which is to list them individually on the BST.)

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Posted By: JohnnyH

The nice thing is you have options. If you really love the T206 I wouldn't sell them, because if you do there is a chance you will never be able to get back into them as you had already done it, of course you might get into something else you never had thought of and like it even more. If you take out a loan and things get tight, you can always start selling cards to pay it off. It's not like you are facing losing your home, 170.00 a month will be easy to off set by only spending half of what you do now on T206 and maybe cut back on a couple other things. I wouldn't do anything drastic, without any CC debt you are fine, plus you will get the interest paid on the loan as a write off on your taxes.

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Posted By: Michael C

Phil-If my post offended you then I wasn't as articulate as I would have liked to have been.

My point was that taking out debt, or significant debt to have it all is not a smart thing. People choosing to have it all....now....is what has caused so many of the problems we face today.

For me, taking out a loan to keep my cards is just not something I would ever do. I love the hobby, but they are just pieces of cardboard. No way, would I pay the bank a bunch of interest so I could keep my cards around the house.

Good luck in your choice.

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Posted By: Phil

Thanks Michael (and thanks to everyone else for their opinions).

Michael, no offense taken. My wife and I have been very diligent financially and took all the necessary steps and sacrifices so we would never be in a financial pickle. I thought you were lumping me into the group of people that bought $500,000 homes with interest-only loans or the people that have $50,000+ on their credit cards and can barely make minimum monthly payments. I agree with you on taking out a loan vs. selling my cards then. I have a hard time paying a bank when I have something that sits in a few cardboard boxes on a shelf in my home office.

I will answer a few other questions here:

What we did with the money was we built a 2 car garage. We planned on building a finished "play" room above it. Over the weekend we went to a local electronics store and made the mistake of going into the "theater room". What we saw blew us away. A 98" High Def screen with reclining theater seats. We put away enough cash to pay for the entire garage. Now to make an ultimate home theater in the room above, it will cost us about another $15,000.

We don't have kids and we both work very hard all week.....usually at least 5.5 days a week. So, after some discussion, we decided let's do it. I was drooling over the thought of High-Def sports on a 98" screen. I instantly told my wife that I'd sell my cards. She said, "No, you don't have to do that".

Now, before some reply by saying, "Do you really need a 98" screen and custom theater seats, custom sound, etc., etc." The answer is, of course not. Nobody NEEDS that. But as someone asked, would I/we get as much enjoyment out of the added feature (home theater) as I do from my T206s, I would answer that with YES! We will be living in that room. I rarely take my T206s out of the box to look at. Another question, was would this improvement increase the value of your home? Answer is, YES!

I thank each and every one of you guys/gals for your responses. I think that I'll look into a loan and see what it will cost me. Knowing myself, I will probably pay the loan off in 3 or 4 months anyways. I HATE DEBT.

If anyone is interested in possibly purchasing the collection as a whole, please email and we can discuss price, etc.


Thanks again!

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

It sounds as though you have answered your own question without really needing our advice. None of this is of huge priority for a practical person, so you already know the best answer yourself. Which one would give you the most pleasure? Honestly, taking out a loan for a purely extravagant purchase is silly, don't you think? At least when buying many types of vintage cards and collectibles, you are nearly always guaranteed to see your investment increase. Ask yourself this--do you want something that will give you instant gratification, but is guaranteed to depreciate in value (and might break down), or do you want to keep pursuing the monster? The latter will always provide you with enjoyment and gratification, but is also a far wiser way to use your hard-earned disposable income. As a compromise, why not opt for something used or a little more cost-efficient that is within your means (or could be an attainable goal within a month or two)? Honestly, this is the most practical and logical choice from how you describe your situation.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"A 98" High Def screen with reclining theater seats."

I would sell the cards for that anytime. You cannot recline in a theatre watching sports on a 98" HD screen while playing with your baseball cards.

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Posted By: JohnnyH

Another thing to think about is that TV will probably be half the price it is now in 12 months, on the bright side, in 3 or 4 years when you need a new one you will probably be able to get a 150 inch for a 1/4 of what you spend on this one ! Superbowl at your house !!

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Posted By: Phil

Actually answering some "TV" questions........

The electronics store I went to is a stand-alone, single store business that do a great business locally. They will work on a package deal if you want to buy everything through them. The High Def projector is brand new and retails for $9,000. In a package deal, they will bring my cost down to $3,500 for the projector. Won't get a better deal down the road, that's for sure.

Also, looked at bigger screens....yeah they go up to about 130". Even I have to say that 130" is too big. I was told that after about 100" or so, you start to lose a little definition in High Def unit.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's a lot of money for a TV, and there really is nothing good on anyway. I might not advise you to sell your collection for a big screen TV. But it's your call.

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Posted By: sagard

I have no problems with you getting the Monster theater vs. the Monster. Do keep in mind the EVERY electronics deal will be available again every six to twelve months.

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Posted By: barry arnold

I'm with my fellow old timer, Barry S. .
I'm now thinking that you've been listening to the Monster (wanting you to quit) for far too long and are now captured by the cultural 'darkside'.
But I must say if you're going to talk TVs, I'd listen to my Emory bro.
Jeff L. who knows TVs as well as cards!!

all the best,

barry

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Posted By: JohnnyH

I still haven't upgraded from the 36' sets that weigh 250lbs so I'm the wrong person to make any sort of comments, the nice thing is they weigh to much for my kids to push over. My dad just bought a 60+ high def and says it's the best money he ever spent. I didn't know they made them bigger than that, wow wow wow that is a big tv !!

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Posted By: Adam

"I will only sell them if I can do it as one group. I will never break it up."\

My only suggestion would be to only sell the "commons" as one group. I would suggest selling any HOFers, SLers, variations etc. individually as that will likely get you a lot more money (not to mention likely get you that money quicker).

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Posted By: barrysloate

Phil- once you get past Seinfeld and Simpsons reruns, and Curb Your Enthusiasm, television ceases to exist. Keep the cards!

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Posted By: Phil

Just to clarify one last issue, then I'll go away and have an "alone" minute with my T206s tonight and we'll talk it over.

I'm not selling my collection or borrowing money to just buy a TV. It is how we want to finish the space above the garage. It is going to cost about $15,000 to put a 98" High Def TV, built in speakers in the room, theater seats, flooring, radiant floor heating, a built in bar, etc., etc.

This IS an investment in our property. It is an entire room with the huge TV that is what I am weighing vs. a cardboard boxes that sit in my office.

The reason the decision has to come now is that the room is still unfinished and the builder has to know how to finish it with walls, built-ins, electric fixtures, wiring, etc., etc. It's not something we can easily (or cheaply) add next year or something after the room is finished.

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Posted By: Mark

The 98" TV would be nice for displaying hi-res scans of the cards you sold to buy it. (:

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Posted By: Joann

Shoot, Phil. You make it sound so good that I'm ready to sell MY cards!

I'm even more of the mind I had upthread - sell the cards, get the kick-a$$ theater set up, owe no one, and start buying cards again if you want.

J

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Posted By: Phil

When it's done, I'll post pictures here of my theater room instead of my scans of a T206 Billy Purtell and see what you guys think.

Thanks again everyone!

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Posted By: T206Collector

...think about the lifestyle my family could have if I sold off my entire collection, including minor home improvements that would increase my home value. But I try to think of the cards as soul-fulfilling necessities, which also have the added bonus of providing a rainy-day nest egg for any unforeseen obstacles that come our way -- much more liquid that a remodeled bathroom or minor home additions. My cards provide more enjoyment than a standard savings account, but I like having it available if necessary.





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Visithttp://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Bottom line..."The Monster" BRINGS THE NOISE at all times

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Posted By: peter ullman

phil...a word of caution...about 8 years ago I sold my t206 drum backed Solly Hofman card for a little over 1K...I used these funds to buy a nice leather recliner. Otto...my new kitten at the time...proceeded to scratch/chew the bejeesus out of it...and I eventually dumped it at a huge loss. BB card Karma? Maybe? If you go ahead with the home theatre...which I wouldn't condone...don't let any clawed/hoofed animals up there!

pete ullman

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, I agree that as I get older there is less and less to watch on TV. But watching sports on a ginormous plasma television is really one of life's true pleasures.

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Posted By: Jim VB

We also favor penultimate televisions. The house is littered with them. We have been at the forefront of that collecting movement for years. We also have one room set aside for the required 102" projection model. We never seem to bother to go in that room. The picture quality doesn't compare to the plasma or LCD models.

It does, however offer terrific group play on the XBox 360.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Those big TV's are pretty amazing. I guess Phil has to decide in the end where he wants to spend his money.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

media room? Shoot... sell, sell, sell!

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Posted By: Don

Ask yourself if you would borrow the money to buy the cards, because that's essentially what you're doing. Then you'll have your answer.

Personally, I'd sell the cards.

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Posted By: Red

If you plan on immediately starting to collect the set again as funds become available then I would not sell the cards. The cost of the loan will be a lot cheaper than the hit you'll take selling the cards wholesale, only to start buying them one at a time retail again. You said you'd only be interested in selling them as a group, and the type of person who will buy a group like that will be buying them only at a good discount. If you figure you recently paid $25,000 retail for them a card at a time, it will be hard for you to sell the deal for $15,000. When you start buying them again you'll be paying the retail prices on $25,000 worth of cards again. If you just borrow the $15,000 and pay it off at an accelerated rate by putting everything you would be spending on new T206 cards towards it, the $15,000 might only cost you $1000 or $2000, and you'll still have all your original T206 cards.

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Posted By: Mark L

Having heard some more, I would say keep the cards. If you were adding a bedroom or remodeling a kitchen, I'd say that you're surely helping the value of your house. But I'm not sure that every buyer will want to pay what you'll be expecting for a deluxe home theater.

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Posted By: john

The highest payback on remodeling is a kitchen which would bring you 85% return, if your house is sold with 2-3 years,
that percent decreases year after year. A media room could bring 30-40% return for the same amount of time. These %
are from the National association of home Builders and
and National Association of Realtors. As an investment a media room is not considered the big two Kitchen and Bath.
It's a option that many people would not consider paying
more for 4-5 years after completion if ever. I remodeled my basement with a similar project for about $20,000 in 2006 and recently sold my house in new york. I maybe got $2000-$3000 back for the remodel. The home theather in my opinion is like buying a car it will lose value very quickly. D0 it for the love of it, not resale value if/when you move. As for the cards the cards are replacable possibly at a higher price, but with the theater after 3-4 years there will probably be no increase in the homes value due to the theater. The home will increase without the theather as it has nation-wide over the last 20 years on average. Best of luck

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Posted By: John V

I think you will regret selling off your set. Scale back on your media room design. Go buy a 56 to 60 inch TV. Wire the room for sound before the sheetrock goes up. Then, continue to upgrade your collection and the media room over time. Eat the elephant one bite at a time.