1952 Topps Jackie on eBay

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Posted By: John K

This card (the PSA 8 with no reserve) has the same PSA slip of the card sold by Bill Goodwin in his '52 Topps auction, but it is not the same card. Go to www.goodwinandco.com and go to past auction results and select 1952 Topps set and compare the two images.

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Posted By: PC

You are correct ...

Here is the 52 Topps Jakie Robinson PSA 8 from the 8/2008 Goodwin auction:
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail2.aspx?lotid=5551

And here is the current eBay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1952-TOPPS-JACKIE-ROBINSON-312-PSA-8-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ190270740604

Same serial number on the two flips, but the cards are definitely different, and the flips are also printed differently.

Note that in the eBay auction, the back of the flip is cutoff in the scan of the back (which is very suspicious), whereas the back of the flip in the Goodwin auction is clearly scanned, and appears completely legitimate. Also, in both auctions I have a hard time seeing the little "PSA" that is supposed to appear in the lower right corner on the back of newer PSA holders (but the Goodwin card might have been slabbed before PSA added that to their slabs).

Very scary. Somebody has some 'splaining to do.

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Posted By: PC

I emailed the seller, and asked if he was aware that the card he was selling had the same flip as the Goodwin card, and if he could explain what is going on here. I gave him the link to the Goodwin auction.

The seller responded quickly, saying "The only thing I can tell you is this card came from an auction house in California."

I emailed back, asking him for the name of that auction house in California.

Will post his response if/when I get it ...

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Posted By: pat

he has a 1952 topps #261 mays psa 9 for sale as well. on both cards, the fonts on the flip look wrong to me. particularly the serial number. he has a ton of cheap stuff for sale and then a card worth upwards of $7,000 and another worth over $25,000 with odd looking flips. looks bad to me.

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Posted By: John K

Yesterday, I spoke with Bill Goodwin and he looked at the two scans and agreed that something was not Kosher (I believe he said that one could use photoshop to alter such images). He suggested that I call PSA to alert them. I spoke with a young woman at PSA about what I found and she said she would give Joe Orlando the info. I have never had much luck in talking to ebay. Auction is down. Seller, sportsandsorts, still has a Mays '52 Topps PSA up. Wonder where this one comes from; it looks very familiar to me.

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Posted By: PC

The seller responded to my follow-up email, saying: "This is really disturbing. I've ended the listing until this can be fully investigated. Thanks for the heads-up."

I sent another email asking if he wouldn't mind sharing where the card came from, because other collectors might be able to help him. I also suggested that he contact PSA directly.

I will continue to post updates as received.

As noted above, the flips on his other listings looked a little "off". The 1952 Mays PSA 9 looks better than the 1952 Robinson flip, but who knows. However, I think I see the embossed "PSA" on the back of the 1952 Mays holder (which is either good news, or even more disturbing). I have the same concerns with the 1954 Aaron PSA 8 flip/holder, but the back scan in that auction shows the full reverse of the flip, which looks like it might be ok.

edited to add: I checked this seller's feedback history, and it appears he's been selling more modern, high grade material. I did notice a high dollar 33 Goudey Gehrig that went for $4600 in a CSA (???) holder, and that he received one negative feedback for supposedly selling an altered Pete Rose rookie in an SGC holder ("wow" if that's true). I'd say it's entirely possible that this seller picked up a bunch of cards to resell, and got stuck with one or more faked holders/flips, but of course would like to know more about where these cards came from.

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Posted By: John K

That Mays 9 was in an auction fairly recently, I believe.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

A '52 Topps Mays card with the same cert no. as the one in the current eBay auction sold in a Mastro auction in April 2007. Here are scans from the Mastro auction (left), and from the eBay one (right). Also, below those, a larger scan of the card that the eBay seller sent me a couple of days ago. (He said he didn't have a flatbed scanner; that this was the best he could do.) He has already had the Mays auction down once and then back up again, explaining to me that he did this because he didn't "promote it correctly on eBay" the first time (whatever that means). As with the Jackie Robinson cards, these don't look like the same card to me. I would highly suspect foul play in this case.

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Posted By: PC

Regarding the 1952 Mays PSA 9 ... definitely different cards and flips. Just look closely at the corners of the black inside border around the Mays cards, and at the inside of the corners on the red part of the flips. The corners are square on one and rounded/uneven on the other, etc.

I sent a link to this thread to the seller, told him his auctions were being discussed, and invited him to come on the board and explain these cards.

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Posted By: Jerry

Hard to tell but looks like to me that the Bar Codes are different.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

The one on the right looks like a reprint.

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Posted By: John K

Bar codes ARE different!

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

The '52 Mays has been taken down now too. Good catch guys on the matching cert #'s. You may well have prevented someone from getting scammed for some big money.

I have seen many cases of this sort of thing lately, where a cert # from a legitimate card is 'borrowed' to try to sell a fake or substitute card. In some cases there is evidence of tampering with a holder and physical swapping of cards, and in others the switch is apparently done photographically, using an image editing program.

Challenging the sellers who offer these bogus cards/images seems to be an effective way to get them to pull the auctions. I usually don't accuse them of anything right away (after all, it is possible that they bought a fake card in a tampered holder themselves); I just express my concerns point blank, and present the evidence I have, with before and after scans if possible, and ask them if they can explain the discrepancy. That usually does the trick.

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Posted By: John K

The seller promised to list some nice Mantle cards next week. Think we'll see them?

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Posted By: Anonymous

The seller has not responded to my recent emails. He still has two other high end/high dollar cards up.

This 1954 Topps Aaron PSA 8:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1954-TOPPS-HENRY-AARON-128-PSA-8-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ190270744149

And this 1963 Topps Mays PSA 9:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-TOPPS-WILLIE-MAYS-300-PSA-9-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ190270760766

Has anyone seen the same serial numbers, on different cards/flips, in other auctions? At this point, it would not be surprising to find them.

Anyone have a connection at PSA? I would think Joe Orlando should be losing sleep over this kind of activity. If they do not do something about these faked flips and holders, the reason for their existence will disappear. I would also think Mastro and Goodwin, etc. would be aggressively combating this kind of fraud, since they stand to lose substantial revenue as our faith in the ability of the grading companies to protect their product continues to erode.

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Posted By: Scott S

Great work...

Joe Orlando has always been prompt about replying to emails. He can be reached at jorlando@collectors.com.

Scott

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I found the '63 Topps Mays card, previously auctioned on eBay in October, and before that, by Memory Lane in May. However, the buyer in October was in fact the current seller of the card (sportsandsorts):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220299147676

Here are images of the card from Memory Lane (top left), the October eBay sale (top right), and the current auction on eBay (bottom). This one looks to be legitimate.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Here is some more grist for the mill.

The '64 Topps Mantle on the right was sold on eBay by Legacy Sports Rarities in January 2008, and the one on the left was listed by 'mnmiracle2004' on eBay last month. When I sent 'mnmiracle2004' the scan from the earlier Legacy auction, and asked him to explain why he apparently had a different card with the same cert #, he replied that he only sells authentic cards, he got his graded by and received it directly from PSA, someone must have tampered with the other card, PSA must have made a mistake, etc., and then pulled the auction.



Here's another pair of '64 Mantle cards with the same cert #. The one on the left was sold on eBay by 'mintxpress' in October 2007, and the one on the right by 'vintagerookies' last Saturday. I never challenged 'vintagerookies' on this one, but it is pretty clear they are not the same card, and the flips are different as well.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

This should not come as a shock. Flip altering has been discussed before. It's the future of alterations...now the present.

So far, I only know of two companies that have taken proactive steps to attack the problem, Beckett and Global.

Mike Baker at Global went as far as to change their flips completely with new paper that is alteration resistant and has the most advanced anti-counterfeiting flip of all grading companies. Mark Anderson at Beckett has done a fine job as well.

PSA is more that aware of their vulnerabilities and have been for some time. It's to the point where they could not recognize their own forged flip in hand (it's been tested). SGC is just as vulnerable and is probably easier to duplicate. IMO improvements need to be made with these companies and quickly.

In the end, I think the criminals will always find a way and nothing is completly safe. Making it harder may just deter them to antoher grading company.


http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1208661825/last-1208799292/Big+problems+in+the+hobby

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1184001138/last-1184080741/A+new+concern

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1173836769/last-1174007120/I%27m+not+PSA+bashing...part+two


Kevin Saucier




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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: PC

Kevin certainly warned us about this, several times. It appears the future is indeed now.

Kudos to Becketts and Global for trying to do something, but unfortunately, in the retail market for cards, I see no way to trust any of the major grading company slabs and flips from this moment forward.

Grading now seems useful only if you are the one submitting the cards, and you intend to keep them. Sounds like a dwindling market for PSA, SGC, Becketts and GAI. Hard to see much of a future in that.



It was a fun hobby while it lasted.

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Posted By: leon

I was at lunch today with Mark Anderson, Director of Beckett Grading, and we actually talked about this subject and this thread. Not totally speaking for Mark, as he commented on the main board, but their holders are pretty darn tough.....and for the most part, tamper-proof.

I did send Joe O a link to this thread and he did kindly respond and say they are aware of the issue and are looking into it. I hope both SGC and PSA will take some steps to help prevent these issues in the future. regards

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Posted By: PC

Tamper proof is good. But is it enough?

What we've see here (apparently) are exact copies of PSA slabs and flips. We know from Kevin that Global and Becketts have made improvements to prevent alteration of their products, but how does that stop someone from manufacturing an exact replica?

Is the Beckett holder counterfeit proof? Is SGC's or GAI's?

We see with our own eyes that the PSA holders and flips are not.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

The fact that I stumbled across two bad PSA 9 '64 Topps Mantle cards and/or holders in the past year, out of maybe eight or ten examples in total that I looked at during that period, is a bit unsettling. And I only noticed the common cert #'s because I happened to go back and look at scans I had saved previously. I suppose a card like '64 Topps Mantle is a prime target for forgery and thievery, because it is of high value and yet relatively plentiful, but I don't like the probabilities.

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Posted By: leon

I won't speak for Beckett or any grading company, but really now, c'mon.... I am not sure anything is absolutely 100% safe. I guess someone could buy a $50k-$100k(or more) machine and make their own holders..... I doubt Fort Knox could claim to be 100% safe.

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Posted By: PC

Leon -- true. But as Eric has already pointed out, I don't like the probabilities here.

We're so focused on the holders being counterfeit ... we haven't asked the next obvious question: are the cards in the fake holders even real? If they are not, they are very good fakes. Overgraded real cards in fake holders, or fake cards in fake holders. Not much of a choice there.

I'm not saying I'm an expert at spotting fakes, but I've been collecting for a long time and all those cards and holders looked good to me. And, honestly, they all STILL look legitimate to me. I find it extremely disturbing that we only know there's a problem because we can see the cards and flips with the same serial numbers are different from each other. We still don't know which holders (and/or cards) are the the fakes -- we only know one of the holders (and maybe one of the cards) must be.

Moreover, it's only because the most experienced collectors are seeing higher grade rare cards pop up, and then going back and comparing recent auctions (because they recall seeing the same card recently, or to check the closing prices), that we're catching any of this. And then it takes several sets of experienced eyes to draw a conclusion.

This should be setting off more alarm bells that it appears to be. For this collector, I don't see why anyone takes the chance going forward, particularly when the cost of being wrong on those high grade cards is so high.

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Posted By: TFerg

I'm in the injection mold business. Knocking-off the holders would be easy, I suspect the Chinese have already done it and cheaply. Another avenue would be getting them from the current suppliers (a supervisor might let a few out the back door, or a press operator could pocket a few). Scary stuff for sure, I'm always skeptical when I buy, but now even more so.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I'm with Leon....nothing is ever really safe.

Here is what I know:

PSA & SGC flips can be made close to perfection. PSA from an original and SGC from scratch. They have no safeguards. As mentioned, someone on the PSA staff (?) could not tell they had a made-flip when the system was tested over a year ago.

Global flips, at this time, are the best against forgery.

Beckett holders, to the best of my knowledge, cannot be cracked without showing signs of tampering and offer the best protection for all cards (security, UV, movement, holder damage, waterproof, etc)...no one is even close.

GAI & Becket are open to new ideas and will request assistance in an effort to improve their product.



Here is practice flip made from an orignal, printed intentionally at a slight angle to show it's fake. This particular flip was chosen because it could not be from a cracked holder, it only exists at PSA where it is/was displayed as shown, in a black & white picture in SMR.




Kevin Saucier

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: PC

Kevin -- in the Mantle scans Eric provided, and in the 1952 Topps auctions that are the subject of this thread, can you tell which flips/holders are fakes, and if the cards in those holders are also fake?

If so, can you explain how?

Thanks

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Posted By: John K

I started this whole thing, but I was lucky. I saw the auction on eBay for the Jackie and I thought I'd compare it to the card Bill Goodwin had in his '52 Topps auction, and happened to notice the serial # was the same. It was just luck. I believe that the image was manipulated by some program like photoshop, as Bill suggested to me. The slip on the Mays was also manipulated, it seems obvious to me. It's obvious that we have discovered a crooked seller. I'm not sure how a grading company can prevent such manipulations. Having a board like this makes for a certain level of security. I would like to see Joe Orlando post his thoughts on this board.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Must admit some of those look pretty good. As with any card, unless you're an expert in that particular issue, you would need to see it live and louped. The Mays maybe a complete fake altogether by a quick look at the colors and oddly white border but I'm no expert in that issue and would need to see it in person.

Typically the places to look on forged flips are the letters "G" and the numbers "5" and "0". The number five generally has a more closed bottom loop. The number zero is often seen as much narrower on the fake. PSA's print quality is usually not as clean. I call it slop print...but it works.

For the most part, we are seeing printed flips made from scratch or the front photo doctored. Other than what I have made, I have yet to see a real flip doctored. If it's not already here...it's coming though. If I can do it, so can others.

From the pic alone of the first 64 Mantle's, the left has the appearance of being photoshopped. I made some color adjustments to show the possible cover-up. Plus, the top of the flip seems to overlap the seal. Or it could be a forged flip placed inside..it does look like the sides and top a are bit frosted. The card on the right has what seems to have the traditional PSA print...with the closed bottom "5's."



The bottom 64 Mantle's look much better. The right does seem to be way over white, with short bar codes and the wrong "PSA" name font. I can see how this would fool collectors though. Again, scanned images and photo's a easy to dupe. Would like to see the slab edges and flip backs though.

Kevin

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

....crack those puppies open!

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Posted By: PC

Thanks Kevin. Can you tell us if you've seen a complete conterfeit SGC, GAI or Beckett holder w/flip out in the marketplace? Not just fake flips or opened holders, but the "whole thing" faked (like the PSA examples above).


And the seller of the auctions above responded to my last email -- he thanked me for pointing out the problems with his two 1952 Topps auctions, and then told me he obtained those cards from the same person, but he wasn't going to tell me anything more about it, and if he decides to pursue this with PSA or the police that is his business. He said his only obligation is to the ebay bidders, and he took those auctions down.

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Posted By: Chris

Vintagerookies is Bret Toman, who also received feedback from sportsandsorts in June on Bret's buyer id (t-bone56). I can't tell if that auction was for the Mantle, but I will email him a link to this thread.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

"I did send Joe O a link to this thread and he did kindly respond and say they are aware of the issue and are looking into it."

It isn't like PSA hasn't known of this issue for a while, but as long as the public keep buying, why should they care? The WIWAG thing didn't slow them down a bit.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Thanks Kevin. Can you tell us if you've seen a complete conterfeit SGC, GAI or Beckett holder w/flip out in the marketplace? Not just fake flips or opened holders, but the "whole thing" faked (like the PSA examples above).


No, I have not seen a counterfeit slab....yet. Let alone all three together. That sould be scary if perfected.

IMO if one experiments and cracks enough slabs they will have enough to make some clean examples or they can be simply (actually not so simple) buffed to an acceptable level to fool the average collector. Except for the Beckett slab.

Not sure there is anything else that can be done. Had a pleasant discussion with Joe O. several months ago and offered my services to help their senior graders for free. This is what can offer the hobby and I only live about 20 miles away from PSA. Guess they don't need or want the help but it's still available.

Kevin

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: marty q

the whole graded card market is on the verge of collapse, vitage mkt i should say, all that is needed is a major auction house to be fooled with a number of bad graded cards and the trust will be gone overnight!! because if you cant buy from a trusted auction house the game is over, it does eeem much easier to duplicate 50s amd 60's cards, the pre war would be more difficult, but they will try, high profile will also be tough a psa or sgc 8 ruth card would be harder to pass than say that 64 mantle, more eyes are on the ruth than the mantle...this is a shame, and it needs addressing ""now"", the day a major auction house is duped would be a tremedous blow to the hobby....they say buy from someone you know, yeah fine, but unless they submitted the card and can provide proof, you have to question where they got the card from?? it is getting way to troublesome to enjoy collecting graded cards anymore, ""raw"" will make a strong comeback until they start again trimming, erasing borders, adding colors etc, it makes you wonder year after year auction houses galore come up with mint cards like crazy, even nm/mt, every auction has high grade cards, and plenty of them, how many have already been purchased that are fake?? makes you cringe thinikng about things like this...

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Posted By: Jim VB

Kevin,



This is closing the barn door after the horse is out, but these guys should have been putting some sort of hologram on the flips and/or on the holders (unobtrusively). However, with only a couple of million of these graded cards in circulation, it may be a little too late.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

This is closing the barn door after the horse is out, but these guys shoul have been putting some sort of hologram on the flips and/or on the holders (unobtrusively). However, with only a couple of million of these graded cards in circulation, it may be a little too late

Agreed...it may be too late. A simple hologram of counterfeit proof flip would have been a great start.


the day a major auction house is duped would be a tremedous blow to the hobby

You mean they haven't already?


it does eeem much easier to duplicate 50s amd 60's cards, the pre war would be more difficult

I must humbly disagree.


Kevin

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Mike

The bar codes are definitely different. But which ones are correct. PSA needs to respond on here and do an article in the SMR about what collectors need to look for in the fakes. Is their a pattern to the bar codes on the fakes ?

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Posted By: marty q

kevin, just dont disagree,wich is fine, but give us examples that would help and let people know how a mint or nm/mt ruth is just as easy passing as a nm/mt 1965 pete rose?? if you know do tell, it only helps. just my opinion- but i would think it would be easier to go on ebay and buy a psa 6 or 7 65 rose and make it into an 8 with a fake flip, buying a psa 4 ruth and trying to put it into a 7 holder might be more difficult, if we are talking about a fake card altogether thats a whole new ball game...thats on ebay everyday...aging the reprint and trying to pass it, and even those wind up into a fake holder, i think awhile back someone was duped on craigs list with a bunch of those....i stand corrected- i wasnt aware of a major auction house passing bad cards, could you please tell us wich house it was?? and what was the story?? thank you kevin. like i said, if you know it only helps us kevin..

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Posted By: John K

I don't think the '52 Jackie on eBay exists as a card in a holder. It's an optical illusion, and a hologram could probably be added. I trust that Bill Goodwin had the card he auctioned; this guy had no card.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

This seller could be a perpetrator, but he might just be a victim of fraud himself. In any case, in addition to the '52 Topps Robinson and Mays cards, he has now taken down the '54 Topps Aaron he had on eBay as well. The '63 Topps Mays is still up for grabs.

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Posted By: PC

The fact that he continued to respond to me and took the auctions down are positives for him. But who knows the extent of his involvement, if any (other than perhaps being duped himself).

The auction houses need to be very worried. I'm repeating myself, but at this point who would purchase any high dollar/high grade card, even from the most reputable eBay seller or auction house, without having an ironclad, no questions asked return policy, or without at least seeing the card in person.

Do the auction houses have to resubmit all their cards for verification, in order to be comfortable (or avoid liability)? That's not an attractive proposition, as the costs will go up and margins will get narrower. And that doesn't necessarily help the buyer in a resale, since the trust isn't necessarily going to be there.

What happens now?

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Posted By: boxingcardman

That does raise a difficult point with auctioneers. Nearly all are "no refund, no returns" endeavors. I guess you would have to trust that the auctioneer would not want to sell crap and would therefore either refuse it or pull it once discovered. I also believe in the abominable snowman and UFOs.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: John K

Same dealer is on ebay with a 1948 LEAF Jackie, SGC 92, no reserve. Anyone know anything about this one?

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Posted By: Jim VB

He bought that one on Ebay back in February for just under $7900.

Here's the scan from VCP.