Others selling fakes of your cards... Do You care?

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

Tonight, just for kicks, I googled: old put cigars, just to see what came up. On the second page of entries under: FOSSIL WOOLY RHINOCEROUS HORN WWW.IOFFER.COM, there was an entry for an E98 Honus Wagner with an Old Put Back. I clicked on it and it took me to a site called IOFFER. (I have never heard of IOFFER till now) I scrolled down the page and there was my E98 Wagner with an Old Put back. It caught my attention, because I bought in 2007 in the REA auction, what is believed to be the only E98 Wagner with an OP stamped back. This seller with the name bigbadgodofwar1 is selling an obvious fake OP Wagner. I know it is a copy of mine because of the chip just above his head and the corner crease in the lower left corner which matches mine which is graded by SGC (20) and came from REA. If you look it up in REAs archives or on my SGC registered set, you can see it is clearly my card. He wants $2,500 for his fake. When you see other items for sale, by this seller, many of them are highly sought after and rare cards which are obvious fakes. Some of these may even be board member's cards. Looking at his feedback, he says on his negatives that there is no reprint stamp on them so they are authentic and you buy them as is. What a scumbag.

My questions to my fellow board members are these. #1: Should this bother me? I mean this is obviously wrong and immoral what this guy is doing to others, but should I/WE care? Do I look at it like James' thread of the Heartland/Starting Lineup figure where if someone is either stupid or nieve (SP?) enough to not know it is a fake, OR or just plain wants a fake even though it means paying through the roof for it, hey more power to the seller??

#2 Should I be upset that he uses the image of my card to make a profit, os should I just be flattered that I own a nice enough card that someone would want to copy it?

#3 Would you contact the bum or just let it go?

*** I'm not looking for conflict or "legal action" here, just curious what others thought.

Thanks,
Tim Kindler

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Posted By: Paul

I would be a little upset, & would contact the "bum".

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Posted By: Bob

Ditto

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Posted By: Dan McCarthy

1) I think that you/we should definitely care that this guy is selling bogus cards, as it just chips away at the integrity of the hobby even more... between the obvious reprints, forged autographs, and now cracked and modified PSA holders, it's a shame that you need to question everything you find. That said, if someone spends $2500 on a reprint that obvious I wouldn't feel too bad for them. If I were purchasing something for that amount of money that I had little knowledge of, I'd definitely consult someone first. Asking a vintage card board like this one about authenticity of a card like that is no different than having a mechanic inspect a used car before purchasing or consulting online reviews before buying a new computer or TV. Hopefully any potential buyers would have the common sense to do that.

2) Kind of annoying, but I wouldn't find it too big of a deal. I think (legally) anyone could use that image for whatever they want, since it should be in the public domain (note: neither a lawyer nor law student). However, it's understandable that you'd be upset that someone is reproducing a one-of-a-kind item.

3) I'd certainly contact him, but I don't know what I'd say or how I'd phrase it.

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Posted By: Mark

I more or less agree with Dan. If the scan of your card was obtained from a previous online auction, or from a good quality scan you posted, and someone makes a decent reproduction and sells it as a reproduction -I think that is OK. You don't own the "image" of your card.

If they sell it as an authentic vintage original, that would be a felony in most states - something one should dislike regardless of who currently owns the actual card.

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

Paul, Bob and Dan,
I agree with you in that I would like to contact the bum, but like Dan had mentioned, "What would I say to him?"

Mark, I also agree with you that the image of my card does not belong to me just because I own the card. That being said, like you mentioned, it is wrong and probably illegal that he is using it to sell what obviously is a fake and mentiones that it is not a reprint. I think this is how people get away with these things on ebay by stating that it is bought "as is" so they are protected from basically stealling from an unaware buyer.

I'm not really upset that he has reproduced my card, but it does upset me that he is trying to scam people with a reproduction of my card, as well as many other peoples cards out their in the hobby.

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Posted By: David Smith

Mr. kindler,

If that happened to ME, I would be VERY upset.

First off, if that person is KNOWINGLY trying to rip people off, I would be upset. I would NOT contact the seller but I would contact not only eBay but the police and Attorney General of the state that person lives in.

Every scumbag that gets away with this kind of crap only makes it easier for the NEXT scumbag to come along and try the same thing.

Also, just think of how much it devalues YOUR card. I mean if there is only ONE of these cards known to exist and then MULTIPLES start showing up then some people (who don't know any better or who don't want to take the time to do the research) will think they are somewhat common.

Some people might not really care or think this is a big deal but IF you ever decide to sell your card and some wealthy (but uninformed or misinformed) collectors see it but think it is common, then YOU are going to be losing money because of them NOT bidding on or being interested in your card.

Just my two cent opinion/rant,

David

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Posted By: Ken Wirt

I've been drinking tonight (watching "The Madness"), so with that as a qualifier - I would contact the Bum and threaten to kick his motherf**n ass! Believe me, If this happened to me, and I could find this dude, I would!!!

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Posted By: Mark L

David makes some good points. In fact, it's almost a form of identity theft. You might be able to stop a crime. I would do something about it.

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Posted By: Steve

Contact him and make him an offer. Play him.

Steve

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Posted By: Rob

ask him about the history of the card and see what he says. perhaps he'll come up with a "grandpa's attic" story

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Posted By: leon

It just makes me laugh when this stuff happens. Not really "laugh" in a funny way, mind you. I would do what Steve says above and play him a little bit. It could be fun. I have had this same thing happen to me numerous times. Collecting very rare cards it's easy to tell fakes. I don't take the idiots too seriously and don't lose sleep over them. Play them like a push me-pull me and see what they say. I do think they are losers for doing it...regards

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I wouldn't be happy for various reasons.

I remember when a guy emailed a pic of a card he wanted to sell me. I informed him that not only did did he steal that picture from a website, but he stole the picture from my website and I was the owner of the card. He didn't understand what I was saying and still wanted to know how much I'd offer.

Second place in the dumb seller contest is when a seller on an old sales board (not this one) tried to up my buy offer by saying he received a counter offer from someone else. He didn't realize that there were not two offers from two people, but one person with one offer in one email. He read and responded to the same email twice, the second time thinking he was dealing with a new buyer. The bad part is he inflated how much the first guy offered!

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Posted By: Jason L

please tell me you made up those stories...because those are truly sad.
Somebody stole your card image from your website, then offered to sell it to you? How much did you offer?!

guess you just need to ask for multiple views of the card these days.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Jason, those are my two best dumb seller stories from the last twelve years. So each is a once-in-six-years incident. If I had to guess, I would guess that the first guy was trying to raise money for meth. My guess is that the second guy was lucid but email careless. In and of itself that's not bad or even rare, but it inadvertently revealed his dishonesty.

Naturally, in the second incident I told the seller he should take the other guy's higher offer as I wasn't going to match or beat it.

Though the stories are funny in retrospect, I don't think anyone finds it funny when somone steals his images to make counterfeits. Most find it disturbing.

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

I did email the seller of the fake cards today. The following are the exact words and way in that they were written:

Mine at 11:25- "Are you sure this isn't a reprint? It sure looks like the exact same card I saw in a 2007 Robert Edwards Auction which was graded by SGC."

Seller's response at 12:55: "well tim since your question seems kinda odd since this card isnt graded AT ALL and itS sitting about 10 feet away from uhhhhhh what is your ? exactly OH YEA IS IT A RP NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. YOU MIGHT NEED TO CHECK YOUR INFO."

Mine back at 3:55: Let me check my info. Oh, here is the info! The card you have is my card. It is the only one in existence and you are selling a fake of it! In fact, all of the cards that you have for sale are fakes and you know it! Hope you sleep at night!


Of course, I haven't heard back from him today. If it was ebay I could try to turn him in to the site. But this is a site called ioffer which I know nothing about. As you can see from his email, he dances around the accusation, he also writes like he never graduated from 2nd grade. As Leon stated in an earlier response, this kinda makes you laugh, although not in a very funny way. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but scum bags like this make me thankful there is a site like ours where honest, good people can hang out and discuss cards and buy, sell, and trade with each other in an honest way. Thanks to Leon, Brian, and any of the others (SORRY, I can't remember names)that I have left out who run the forum, for working so hard to keep our great baseball card place going. I look forward to using the new and improved site as well!

Happy Collecting Everyone,
Tim Kindler

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Posted By: Michael Steele

When David said "most find it disturbing". That about sums it up.