Just ended - Mono T217

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Posted By: Randall

Any body else here watching this:

1910?trading card baseball Curtis Bernard Mono cigarett

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Posted By: peter ullman

damn I missed that one...definitely a fair price...too bad for the back damage.
Edited to say...I think you're right, Leon...just remnants.

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Posted By: leon

my snipe was a little under $500...not sure about the back damage.....a good buy for whomever got it....

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Posted By: Rob D.

It's a shame no one posted about this auction before it ended. That way we could have ensured the seller would receive true market value.

Assuming Leon is correct and it was a "good buy," I just hope the seller wasn't a little old lady ...

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I agree, Rob...

The seller would have gotten a better price, in all likelihood. And more potential bidders would have had a chance to get a bid in on it... for some folks that is all they want, a chance. So that would have been good for many, and a frustration to only the winner.

Back damage isn't that bad. And it is better than the other T217s up there that are all trimmed. This one was a nice enough card. I'd have been proud to have it.

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Posted By: Rob D.

It's a darn shame that no one did the legwork for you, Frank, and alerted you to this card before the auction ended. A darn shame. It just doesn't seem right that anyone who might have wanted to place a bid possibly didn't get the chance becaue he or she didn't spend as much time searching eBay and doing his or her homework as did some other folks.

After all, it's not some kind of freeze-tag game. Uh, I mean "hide-and-seek" game.

Here's hoping the buyer will step up and make up the difference between what he or she paid and what the card is really worth. Because that's what it's really all about.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

1- I would not have bid that for that card at this time, so no shame for me.

2- All those folks who'd have seen the outed auction and bid on it would have been happy, as would the seller.

3- And I was mistaken, it would not have been only the buyer who MIGHT have been mad about a potential outing (mad only if it resulted in him buying at a higher price). I'll now add Rob D to that list.

4- Totalling it all up, it still seems that outing is appropriate.

5- Long live hide and seek for you, woolfie.

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Posted By: leon

Nothing personal but I, and the vast majority of folks on this board, agree with Rob's sentiments. I spend a hell of a lot of time searching and when it pays off I am glad. I am not hurting anyone but if I do the work (searches) then I am not going to give it away for free. Most of the times, nowadays, everyone finds everything anyway. Hard work equal (not that it's hard but it can be time consuming) prosperity. It's just that simple. It's the American way. best regards

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Whilst it is clear the winner was savvy enough to obtain this rare type card
at a bargain price, our experience is that even the type card market has
softened considerably

In the December 2008 Mastro Auction we were fortunate to win a SGC 80
Mono (highest graded) for a price which was 30% below the VCP average
for an SGC 40 for (common) which sold 18 months earlier

The economic crisis is discouraging a growing percentage of our competitors.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

If I've been emailing Scott Brockelman back and forth about a ball card transaction, I can see that he or I should be upset if some third party intervenes and communicates to some 4th party who offers more money, buys the card, and leaves Scott or me shut out.

But once information is up on the internet, it's kinda up there for the public to see... I understand how outing annoys some, and if it is done to thwart a certain buyer then it is done maliciously. But outing so others might see? That seems to me a fair, reasonable action.

Woolfie, the day that I buy an outed lot only because I bid on it after it was outed, and you thereby lost... that's the day to whine.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

This is definitely a case of "SHOULD NOT BE OUTED"...it was not listed in the appropriate category. The price probably reflects that, but it is not the bidder's job on ebay to make sure everything gets listed properly. The seller should have done some homework before listing this card. Anyway if I were a betting man I'd say the seller is absolutely overjoyed with the final price of the card.

In my opinion anything listed in the proper category should be up for discussion on this board as I'm guessing that nearly everyone does a full pre-1930 category search every day on ebay.

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Posted By: Rob D.

I didn't realize that disagreeing with you constitutes whining, Frank.

But in hindsight, I should have realized that in your world, it means just that.

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Posted By: Tim

I agree with Dan 100%.

I think if an item is listed properly we should be able do discuss it while the auction is in progress.

However if there is an error that could lead to the item being missed by those that don't do the extra work, then it should not be outed.

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Posted By: peter ullman

Damned if you do...damned if you dont?! I thought the original stance on this board was that it's not OK to out an active auction. Then...it kinda became ok to out active auctions. WTF?

I agree w/ Tim...right above me. While I'm bummed I didn't see it...It's my fault for not searching well enough.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Let's consider this from a different perspective.

eBay has the "Email to a friend" link on the listings. Obviously, they contemplate 'outing', at least directed toward specific individuals.

I've had folks "Email to a friend" to me before, and I'm grateful EVERY time they did it, even if I didn't bid. I too have used "Email to a friend" myself, sending auction info to someone whom I thought would be seriously interested in an item, someone I wanted to help. Was that 'outing'???

Leon, have you EVER "Email to a friend"???

Any of you ever "Email to a friend"????


Maybe eBay should delete that "Email to a friend" if it is SO wrong. Or at least give a seller an option to opt out of that being shown. If I were the seller I'd like for folks to use that. But maybe when some of you guys who view 'outing' differently sell you could stand your moral high ground and opt out. At least, until eBay offers an opt out, you could put in your listings "Please do not convey the existence of this listing to others who might be interested in it until after the auction has closed."

To really make a hide and seek game out of it, why not list a T206 in women's apparel with no mention of T206 or baseball in the heading, just down in the auction. Now that would be fun!!! Ready or not, here I come!

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Posted By: Matt

Didn't we just have this thread?

The circumstances of the "outing" are important - if someone has a legit question and posts an active listing here for more information, that's very different then posting an active listing for no reason other then to put everyone is on a level playing field.

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: Dave F

Frank-

Your thinking on this is totally insane. "Email to a friend" is totally different than announce on a public forum where hundreds see what is being written. I don't mind at all emailing an auction to a friend if it I happen to cross something he may collect. But to think "everyone is happy" if you out an auction is just plain ludicrous.


I can bet you 99% of the perspective bidders of a "hidden" auction will not be happy your "helping" along the uninformed seller in order to increase the sale price. Why in the world do you seem to care so much about what anyone else makes off the sale of a card?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

On this point Frank I think you just like playing the contrarian role. Emailing a friend and posting on a public forum are not even in the same league. Not every ebay seller is a frail old grandmother just trying to sell a few things from her attic so she can afford cream for her coffee. Most of them would cut your throat at a garage sale in order to be the first one in the garage.

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Posted By: leon

I email friends all of the time about an ongoing ebay auction that I think they might be interested in. If I am going to bid on something I don't email a friend.

Frank- please send me part of your next paycheck. No, I didn't work for it, but it's the same premise. I think you are a great guy but we do disagree on the whole "outing" issue.

I will go ahead and state it for the millionth time too. There are, and will be NO BOARD RULE, against outing any auctions. There are too many issues surrounding outing to make a rule about it. Personally, I would prefer they not be outed. take care

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Posted By: Rhys

I never even look in the proper categories on ebay for cards because I assume that if they are on there, they are going to sell for about market value. Like others on here, you do searches that everyday produce possible bargains in the wrong category. FINDING the stuff for a good deal is more fun than just seeing a card you want and paying market value for it in my opinion.

Men in general like to chase stuff whether it is girls, animals, various Sports equipment, etc. On ebay it is way more about the chase than the result and this is why auctions should not be outed.

Rhys

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Posted By: Jay

The majority opinion on this issue seems inconsistent with the majority opinion on dissemination of knowledge. Each take time and work to acquire but the board seems to believe that people should share what they know about scarcer sets but not what they know about upcoming mislisted auctions. Seems like if you believe in sharing knowledge you should believe in outing auctions. I am with Frank on this issue.

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Posted By: Dave F

Well-



Than Frank and Jay...are you going to educate us with what each of you have on your watch lists? I may not care to bid on any of the items..but I'd certainly be upset if the sellers' didn't make optimum profit.

Your both saying people should share auction listings...i can't remember either of you sharing one yet with the board yourselves.

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Posted By: MikePugeda

Actually, that is a very good point Jay.

But with that being said...I am not in favor of outing "hidden auctions". I wanna have my cake and eat it too.

Mike

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Posted By: leon

I agree with Mike P on this. I disagree with my good friend Jay and Frank though. I love helping folks with information about cards. That information has taken me time to develop and learn too.

That being said when I search for hours and find something on ebay I don't see a reason to alert folks that haven't spent the time to do it. Double standard? Maybe, but that is the way I feel.

BTW, Jay- I am sure ya'll did the Old Judge book as a labor of love but I can't believe each one actually costs $125 to produce. Why didn't you just sell them at your raw cost?


best regards
leon

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Posted By: Red

It's called "Email to a friend", not "Email to the competition who will probably end up outbidding me and pissing me off."

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Exactly...I email friends all the time items they may be interested in. Never would I email a friend an auction I planned on bidding on as well.

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Posted By: Jay

Leon--The book is a money loser, the only question is how much money Richard will lose on the project. Besides the money lost on the actual printing of the book it cost both Joe and myself thousands of dollars to get pose images from various museums. That money will never be recovered. That does not count the 1000 plus hours we put into researching and writing the book. You last statement is one of the stupider ones you have made in a while.

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Posted By: leon

Ignorant, maybe? Stupid?...your opinion. I thought it was a good question.......Anyway, I didn't mean to upset you. ..best regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

Since there is no possible way to enforce the "no outing " rule on the board, why don't we agree that it shouldn't be done but occasionally will. We have new posters who are not familiar with board etiquette and may be coming on to ask a question about authenticity, without realizing they outed something. If that is the case, we'll just have to accept it.

But we can agree that discretion is preferred.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Jay, brings up a good point in regard to the information sharing thing. There is currently a good thread over on the Non-Sports side that I think is a good discussion about that.

I am against outing ongoing auctions for the same reasons described above in this current thread. In regard to information sharing, I am all for that as long as the person is willing to share. There is a fine line however when sharing information, as the info you share today may very well cost you money (or a tough item) down the road. I for one have never had major problems sharing SOME information, but I would be lying if I said I didn't also hold a little back for myself. It is very similar to those that were in the know in regard to the tough/rare Old Judge's up to the production of the recently published book.

Two examples in my collecting past being the Colgans Joe McCarthy card--the card was listed for years as "McCarty" in all the checklists, however a little research 5-6 years ago indicated it was in fact the future Yankee skipper Joe McCarthy, and I was able to purchase 4-5 of them prior to the cat being let out of the bag (I only own 1 E254 and the E270 Red Border presently). The same with the 1919 Zeenut "Paddy" Driscoll, although I was only able to pick up a small handful before it kinda came out that that was who was pictured on the card.

With the internet, knowledge about cards/memorabilia has grown quickly. The amount of info one can collect in a few years online previously would have taken dacades to collect the old way.

Anyways, it is an interesting debate.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well I'm home for lunch, and I see this thread hasn't fallen to the second page!

Rhett, Joe McCarthy in Colgan's is a perfect example of sharing information. If someone's smart enough to ask, I usually try to share what I know. There are 3 guys now who currently, occasionally email about an eBay auction, usually asking about authenticity. I'm happy to guide them along, as best I know. That takes my time, and is a result of past effort on my part. I don't charge them. Two have, on their own, sent me a card in token of their appreciation. I value those 2 cards way beyond what the guidebooks say about their value.

Realistically a bunch of what I know I got from the labor or others, indirectly from Mr. Burdick, Mr. Egan, Mr. Bray, Sir Wharton-Tigar, Mr. Sugar, and Mr. Barker; and then from Mr. Lipset, Mr. Haber, Mr. Fritsch, Mr. Zanidakis, Mr. Heitman, Mr. MaCrae and from a few old collectors who'd prefer anonymity. I'm grateful they took time to share what they knew, both in publications, telephone calls, and face to face.

If you think you got where you are on what you've learned on your own, then read through the Acknowledgments page in the Standard Catalog. Those guys blazed a trail for you.

I think that if anyone looks back through this site, they won't find where I've 'outed' an auction. I'm not saying I won't do it...

I will keep doing "Email to a friend" when it seems appropriate to me.

Guys, it is only a tiny step to 'providing misinformation' about a card when you're standing on the stepping stone of 'keeping my hard-earned knowledge to myself'.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I have shared knowledge on this board that made a previously common postcard rocket in value...I still wouldn't out one if I saw it on ebay.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Jay,

I'll talk all daylong and trade endless e-mails in an effort to share knowledge I've picked up throughout the years about certain types of Cleveland Indians memorabilia -- an area in which I think I have a minor degree of expertise. The reason is simple: I feel I'm in a position to provide something that might otherwise not be available to the person seeking the information. Plus, it's fun.

I think that's a lot different than posting links about current eBay auctions just for the benefit of "anyone who might have wanted to place a bid" (Frank's words, not yours.) If a person wants to know what's available on eBay, there's ample opportunity to seek and find -- but it takes time and effort, things I'm guessing some folks don't want to invest.

Spoon-feeding links to auctions and sharing real knowledge are two different animals.

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Posted By: Red

I think it's also a touchy situation to post "just ended" auctions, and question what motivates somebody to do so. If the auction just ended then the buyer probably hasn't even paid yet and the seller still has the card. I wonder how many times as a result of one of these type posts somebody contacts the seller and offers more money for the card, or tells him he could have gotten 50% more by listing it in the right category. It's certainly not right, but how many non-professional sellers in a situation like this would screw the winner over because somebody offered $800 for the card after the auction closes. The deal ain't done until the winner's holding the card in their hand, and somebody interfering in the deal, whether they think they're doing a good thing or trying to steal it away isn't right.

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Posted By: keyway

The only reason i see that someone would out an auction is that they do not want the card but do not want someone else to get a deal. Why else would you do that? I spend hours a day looking over ebay. If I find a deal i'm lucky but have spent the time to do it. Frank