Kalamazoo Bat Issue Date?

[Archive]

Posted By: KBR

I see that Kalamazoo Bat individual player cards are usually dated to 1887. I also see where some people date the New York players to 1886.

It seems to me that the New York players were probably issued in both years. I am not sure about the Philadelphia players.

Dude Esterbrooke (Esterbrook) is pictured with the Mets, whom he joined in 1887. Larry Corcoran is also shown with the Giants, whom he only played in a few games with at the end of th 1885 season and the very beginning of the 1886 season before being dealt to Washington.

The Philadelphia cards have an 1887 copyright date on them while the New York cards do not.

Any thoughts?

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

Keith Olbermann wrote a very comprehensive article on the Kalamazoo Bats for Sports Card Digest. Here is a link to the article:

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/article/Kalamazoo_direct_to_you_baseball_cards_that_is

Art

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

Wow. Great article.
jimB

[Archive]

Posted By: KBR

Thanks. Great info.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

Great article, wish there were more pictures. I love the clarity of the pictures from that set. What really made the article special was the advertising banner of Howie Mandel at the top.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Esterbrook was traded from the Giants to the Mets on October 20, 1886. Thus, it is possible that the New York Kalamazoo Bats could be a late 1886 issue. Esterbrook's trade date also helps date the Old Judge spotted tie subset. Since he has no spotted tie (which he would as a Met) it is presumed that the spotted ties were issued prior to the October 20 trade date. This is one reason (our book details others) that Old Judge photographic cards are presumed to have debuted in 1886.

[Archive]

Posted By: KBR

I was using this reference for the Esterbrook trade to the Mets which dates it at January 12, 1887. Not a big deal, but if true, it would exclude the card being issued in 1886.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/chronology/byyear.php?year=1887

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Kevin--I was using the SABR Nineteenth Century Transactions Register which lists the October 20, 1886 date.

[Archive]

Posted By: KBR

I see. I would put my money on SABR.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Kevin--Since there was a disagreement as to the dates I went back to the period Sporting News to find the answer. The truth is an interesting story. In the October 25, 1886 issue of TSN it was reported that the Giants received a "large sum of money" and had released Dude Esterbrook. TSN at that time states that they do not know with certainty who paid the release money but speculate that it might have been the Mets. The release money did not end the process; the Mets still had to sign Esterbrook to a contract. In the November 13, 1886 issue of TSN it was reported that "Esterbrook has at last signed with the Mets as everybody expected he would." Thus, the SABR October 20 date was the correct date as we expected it would be.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Nice investigative research there Jay.....

[Archive]

Posted By: KBR

Jay, great work. Thanks so much. Do you have old issues of The Sporting News, or did you find it online?

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Thought that these images would be interesting. As you can see Esterbrook is still wearing his Giant shirt (see Dorgan vs Mays) when he posed for his Met picture (Mets have no hats, Giants have hats for K-Bats)so the photo session at the Jos Wood studio (see cabinet) was probably shortly after he joined the Mets. If the Old Judge spotted ties were issued after this I would guess that they would have included this Esterbrook image in the group. The fact that Esterbrook does not have a spotted tie suggests that they were issued prior to this; I would guess some time early in the fourth quarter of 1886. My guess is that the Mets Kalamazoo Bats were issued in late-1886, possibly early 1887. All of the Giants K-Bats could not have been issued prior to this or Esterbrook would have had a Giants card. Whether the issue was spread out over 1886 (and possibly into 1887) we may never know, but the Corcoran card (he last played for the Giants in 1885) makes you wonder.





edited scan size

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

Jay,this Corcoran fellow you speak of actually played a game for the Giants in 1886 before being loaned to the Washington Nationals for about a month,they last used him on July 27,1886 then shortly there after he was returned to the Giants who were using him more as a coach rather than a player before the loan.The Giants had high hopes for Jim Devlin as a player,especially since he was a lefty and their biggest rival,the Detroit team was full of lefthanded batters,so they had Corcoran coaching him to be a better pitcher. Devlin only played one game for the Giants,right after they loaned Corcoran to Washington,so I guess he was done training him. They didnt use Corcoran after getting him back from Washington

So despite the fact he played just one game for the Giants in 1886,Corcoran was with the team a good portion of the season

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

John--Great info

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

I find it interesting that there was no dicsuuion of this. The dating of New York K-Bats would imply that N167s are the rookie cards of all New York Giant players who have an N167, not the K-Bats.

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

Jay,Dont forget the Welton Cigar set(H812) as well, which includes only Giants players,all of whom were with the team from early 1885 until Esterbrook(who is one of the cards in the set) left the team. It includes cards of hall of famers Ewing,ORourke and Welch.

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Thanks for the info Jay and great cards!

marty