Vote!!!

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Steve,

Can you pick Obama out in the photo below? I'll give you a clue: He's the white guy in the middle:




Something tells me this guy wouldn't have won over the parents of many white girls if he showed up at the door in the 1970s and said, "Don't worry, sir. I'm white."

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Posted By: J Levine

James,

I am not piggy backing it, I am just stating that equal rights is a right of all in this country, not just the majority. Whether it is color of skin, sexual orientation, or physicallity (or anything else for that matter). Gay people in California are fighting for civil rights. Nothing more, nothing less. The same rights that other segments have fought for in the past. I was just pointing out that the legalities overlap.



Just for the record Mass. created their gay marriage laws based on Brown vs. Board of Ed.(seperate but equal ruling).



Joshua

Edited to respond to hate...

Just for the record...I have now received three emails (from three different people who I suspect are trolls anyway) claiming that I was a "homo" lover and should burn in hell, I should keep my fag-loving mouth shut, and I am a complete moron and sinner.

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<for those of you who say the majority spoke and the rest of us should just accept that are surprisingly short sighted. >>

Josh,

I agree. There was a time in our country's not too distant past, when the majority of people in the country thought slavery was OK. Less than 50 years ago at least 22 states had laws banning inter-racial marriage. In those states, this was supported by the majority.

As Joann said above, some human rights need to be protected, regardless of what the majority wants.

However, from the viewpoint of my age (50's) I see that this is a much different country than it was when I was a kid. We have improved by leaps and bounds in many areas. We still have a ways to go in some areas. I do not operate under the assumption that we will fix all these things overnight, but they will be fixed in time.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Joshua,

I do agree with you on this. Although a group of people are clearly not in the majority, that does not make their position any less important. What I'm trying to work out in my lil' noggin (scary, I know) are the concepts of perpetual redefinition of terms based on cultural more's and special rights. There are other aspects of my previously stated religious views that I'm also trying to work out. Thanks for your patience

James

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Now that was funny.

All I'm saying is that anyone who is half white and half black can legitimately consider him or herself black or white. Now what their appearance is may determine their choice, that's for sure.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

That I was getting from BOTH sides; At one pt; I almost sent a donation to each party with the specific instructions of PLEASE stop sending me begging emails.

Next time, I'll do that and see what the reaction is

Rich

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Posted By: Alan U

Tiger Woods is in the same position, when was the last time he was "The Greatest Asian Golfer"

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Posted By: J Levine

James,
Thanks for a reasonable reply. I respect anyone who says they do not know it all but are willing to listen to all sides and work it out. I certainly do not know all the answers but I do arm myself with the best information I can find. This is a subject that has come up often in my tenure as Diversity Chair (and with my friends) so I do have some background knowledge on this. My girlfriend worries sometimes that I spend too much time talking about baseball and baseball cards, school, and diversity issues. She will be overjoyed that the three things finally overlapped and I can spend 1/3 the time by doing all three at once.

On another side note...I am still waiting for a compelling, cogent argument against letting same-sex couples get married.

Joshua

PS I did get one email this morning from an outraged Donruss collector who was amazed that I would call out this company. He maintains that the 1988 Donruss series was the best card set ever produced and to take my anti-Donrute sentiment and shove it. It is good to see some people have a sense of humor. I laughed hard!! That made my morning.

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Posted By: JimB

Ryan,

I think you put it perfectly!

Jim





"Ryan,

My point is, all men in California have equal RIGHTS! Gay men are asking for Additional RIGHTS.



nothing more, nothing less."





Marty,

You have got to be joking. The equal right of a gay man and straight man to marry a woman is an equal right? What if the majority were gay and a law was passed that said marriage is only allowed between two men or two women. You have the equal right to marry any man you want, just like gay men. Surely you would not feel discriminated against, right? Or maybe we should pick another arbitrary category: White men over 25 years old are only allowed to marry people who weigh over 400 pounds.

JimB

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Posted By: JimB

People are free to have any religious beliefs they want. But we do not legislate religious beliefs in a democracy. The ten commandments are not laws of the state. If someone wants to commit adultery or worship "false gods", they don't go to jail for that. Why arbitrarily pick one outdated Judeao-Christian law and try to make it the law of the state? Why not criminalize not observing the sabbath? That also comes from Leviticus.
JimB

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

This would not have happened if there had been just a little bit more cowbell.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Jim B,

"Why not criminalize not observing the sabbath? That also comes from Leviticus."




Hey! Quit stealing my material! (All right. It's not mine. I think I got it from West Wing.) I said the same thing about 24 hours ago, and even added the part about "touching a pigskin."

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"Just for the record...I have now received three emails (from three different people who I suspect are trolls anyway) claiming that I was a "homo" lover and should burn in hell, I should keep my fag-loving mouth shut, and I am a complete moron and sinner."

Incredible. I don't even know what to say about this.

-Al

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Posted By: James Feagin

Jim,



I think there are two kinds of voters, one of which votes only for their interests in mind and another who votes what they feel is best for their community, state or country. I tend to fall in the second category. As a citizen, James Feagin's Mormonism (please forgive the third person reference) will play a part, but not dictate what or whom I vote for. I tend to vote for what I think will be best for the greater good. However, on the opposite end I think that total, 100% complete secularism with an "anything goes, you must condone and accept how I am or you're a bigot" attitude is also dangerous. What it comes down to for me is that there doesn't seem to be too many people on either side of the equation who are willing to have a reasonable discourse.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Al, stop your crying. Imagine taking a more forceful position in favor of gay marriage on the radio with 200,000 people listening. In the words of Adam's father, "that'll give you something to cry about."

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Posted By: James Todd

I will never understand how someone can be so enraged by two people quietly loving each other and calling it a marriage. Being married has nothing to do with religion and religion shouldn't factor into the conversation at all. There are plenty of people who get married in non-religious ceremonies.

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Posted By: sagard

Let's just turn "marriage" over to the various religions and get it out of our government. If people want/need today's legal and economical benefits currently provided to the "married", require everyone (straights and gays) to apply for and receive a government endorsed "civil union."

At some point we have to decide if the purpose of denying gay "marriage" is based on the desire to follow religious beliefs or if the purpose is to deny gays the legal rights and benefits afforded to those who can marry today. If it is simply a religious beliefs issue, separate them.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jeff:

That's where we differ.

If I had 200,000 people listening to me, I wouldn't be talking to them about gay marriage, I'd be telling them how important it is that they each give me $10. With great power comes great responsibility - you should be less Bob Grant and more Dr. Gene Scott.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dan- by now you are qualified to write a coffee table book on the history of cowbells.

I've stayed out of this discussion on gay rights entirely, but I will say that I never like to tell other people how they should live their lives. My opinion on gay marriage is in fact entirely irrelevant; others are free to do what they want and don't need to first run it by me.

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Posted By: JimB

Jim VB
Sorry about that. I have not read everything in this thread.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Al, I like your thinking.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Barry, thanks for the compliment...you are entitled to more cowbell.

NOBODY BUT BARRY IS ALLOWED TO CLICK PLAY ON THIS VIDEO!!!!

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Regardless of how we feel............you'd better convince our new president of it too. Both candidates were/are against gay marriage as stated on more than one occasion in the election. I think Civil Unions could work but they'd have to convey the same rights as marriage from a legal standpoint. Joann's point earlier that it would be adopted much quicker is dead on. Everything I've seen is that the public overwhelmingly does not support gay 'marriage' but does support gay 'civil unions'

Like James, and like on MANY issues, I find it hard to believe that both supporers of and detractors from certain issues can ALWAYS agree with or disagree with that issue. These issues are hard. I listen to MANY different sources of information. I have liberal friends who would NEVER listen to Rush Limbaugh or be caught dead watching FoxNews. Same for conservative friends who don't like any news OTHER than FoxNews. Wow..........shortsighted on both parts.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Dan, but I need more cowbell than that!

P.S.- that song can really give one a headache.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Jim B,

You know I was kidding, right?

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Posted By: J.McMurry

another favorite.

You have all the freedom in the world,but your freedom ends where another's begins.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Sorry Barry, I forgot you were a hippie.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dan- I think I saw the Strawberry Alarm Clock at the Fillmore East in 1967, but I'm not 100% sure. It was a concert that featured the Doors and a bunch of other bands. I think they were added at the last minute.

P.S.- since this thread is petering out, if you want to add a cool video for people to watch, let me suggest one of my new favorites:

Led Zeppelin Lost Performances 4/5. I don't know how to post them.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Tom,

Absolutely agreed. Those who identify themselves as liberals, indepedents or conservatives; who only associate with a select few or partake of a segmented media are intellectually lazy.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Barry, that song hit #1 in 1967...the year I was born. Also did you know that the singer on that tune was a 16 year old kid who never recorded with the band ever again?

edited to add: If those Led Zep songs contain cowbell they are allowed in this thread...otherwise no off topics should be posted.

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Posted By: Fred C

Barry,

When you say you do not remember if you saw the Strawberry Alarm Clock or not was it because you were flying high or you just don't remember? It was the 60's you know.... Wow, I picked you for a Peter, Paul and Mary person but there you go with the Led Zep reference. You're always surprising us. Do you like Green Day (I mean the older material from the early 90s)?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I was only 14 and straight as an arrow.







The concert included the Blues Project, the Doors, Richie Havens, the Chambers Brothers, and Janis Ian. That I remember clearly. A sixth band was added unannounced and I think it was them. I just don't remember.



I like P, P, and M, but I also like classic rock. Not too familiar with Green Day, unfortunately.

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Posted By: JimB

Jim VB,
Yeah, I knew you were kidding.
JimB

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Posted By: Joann

Joshua,

I stand both corrected and informed. When I said that the gays would be better fighting for civil unions rather than marriage, I was assuming civil union laws would confer ALL legal benefits of marriage. My thinking was that it could be called something different to get the religious component out of it and thereby make it less controversial. I honestly believe that when the term "gay marriage" gets tossed around, people think they are being asked to accept it morally or even in a religious sense and that's what drives a lot of the opposition. I assumed that, legally, a civil union approach would be identical, including recognition across state lines.

Thank you,

Joann

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Posted By: Jim Thierfelder

You gotta have cowbell

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Posted By: Bob

Guys- Go to a Mississippi State football game and listen to 50,000 people hitting cow bells for 2 hours and you will never want to hear another cowbell for the rest of your life!

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Posted By: GeorgeHC

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Posted By: jdrum

You left out my favorite, Caribou Barbie.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Very sad day for America(and prepare for a sad four years).



As I said before, Obama victory was a given due to state of economy. However, it is becoming harder and harder for Republicans to win giving changing demographics of the country. McCain carries white vote by 12% and still loses handily. McCain is on the very left wing of the Republican party and he loses easily to someone who has the most liberal voting record in the senate. If a liberal republican who is a war hero cannot win it is hard to believe there is hope for mainstream republicans in this country.



What it all means is higher government spending, higher taxes, a decline for free enterprise and a moral decline for America. Thank God for Sandra Palin and what she represents. The U.S. already has one of the very steepest progressive tax systems in the world--lets increase thye taxes on the wealth and job creators even more. The stock market has certainly reacted to this with its big move down in anticipation of a win by the left and now that he has won going down further.



The only positives are the big win on gay marraige in California and that the Democrats did not reach 60 senators. Hopefully under McConnell the republicans will hang tough and filibuster every step troward socialism Obama puts through or tries to put through. I for one will be supporting causes who are pledged to stopping the march toward socialism that Obama/Biden/Pelosi/Frank represent.



Jim

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Posted By: Rich Klein

This comment is not meant to start another different war on the board (and if you posted your email, I'd have asked you directly instead of having to post this way.

And without mentioning exactly where you work (which we have all agreed to do) -- can you explain to me (and you can send me via private email if you wish) how what the gov't did for your business is not a form of socialism itself and how did the bipartisan way it was done differ from the Democratic claim to help all citizens.

As I always say, I like to learn all viewpoints, and I did send money (not very much) to both parties this year just so I can stay on the their mailing lists to see what they would say before the elections. As an aside, I've gotten several emails from the Republican side thanking me although they lost and nothing from the Democratic (winning side). Very interesting indeed.

Regards
Rich Klein

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Posted By: barrysloate

Why a moral decline? I see no reason to assume that.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"Thank God for Sandra Palin and what she represents."

Indeed. Who is she?

I've sort of resisted posting in this thread, mostly, but I've got to say at this point that I am thrilled with the outcome of this election. As a business owner, I'm happy to know my taxes will be going down, that I'll be receiving tax incentives for hiring more employees and paying their health insurance. As an employee of said business, I am happy to know that I won't be required to pay taxes on the money that's deducted from my paycheck each period for said health insurance (as John McCain was planning to do) and that I won't be "receiving" a $5000 tax refund that would be paid directly to the insurance companies. Instead, I'll be offered responsible incentives to grow my small business, and any tax incentives will go back into my own pocket, where they belong.

As for the "socialist" banter, well, we've had a progressive tax system in this country for as long as I can recall, so I'm not sure why bringing the top tax bracket back to Reagan levels is suddenly "socialism," but at least I can agree with my friends on the right that I would prefer a flat tax system whereby the wealthy have to pay the same tax as everyone else. Unfortunately it seems that no presidential candidate has been able to make that happen.

From a foreign policy standpoint I'm pleased that we seem to be moving away from my fear that my oldest son - who will be 17 at the end of the next presidential term - seems to have a better chance of not growing into adulthood during wartime, and that our brave troops are now being led by a Commander in Chief who has an exit strategy in mind. Along the same lines I'm pleased that my children, who will reach college age during the next (hopefully) 8-year presidential term, will be better able to attend college affordably due to the tax credit I will receive for their college tuition.

I'm pleased about the jobs that will be created in the US due to a renewed investment in alternative energy and the tax incentives offered to companies that don't outsource jobs offshore.

And mostly, I'm pleased that a president is in office who seems to have a moral compass that's closer to mine - non-judgemental, tolerant, and willing to invest in education.

So yeah, I'm happy that the country is moving back to the left, which seems to be a move that more than 50% of the voting populace - regardless of their ethnicity - wants.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Al- "Socialist" is the term that the right wing throws at Obama to demean him. It's pretty transparent.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

You don't see a moral decline because you are a liberal. To you, I would guess the increasing number of states who allow gay marraige or the liklihood that retiring justices will be replaced by pro-abortion justices is a sign of great enlightenment or progress. To me its symptomatic of a country in decline.

Rich,

The Government let my company go bankrupt and just watched. I have not complained about this. But they jumped in and saved many others who were there. I think its uneven nhow Paulson applied the rules. Now lets see if the grewat redistributor will bail out the auto industry--my guess is yes--on the backs of the 60 percent of us who pay taxes.

z
Jim

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Barry:

I understand. I just figured that now that the election was over and he's won, we could put that term away.

-Al

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Posted By: James Feagin

I'm kind of hoping this thread will die soon, I have a feeling it could turn ugly. After this point, I will sign out. In fact, if Joshua Levine or anyone else wants to e-mail me, I'd be more than happy to respond. Barry, I think the moral decline is quite severe. In 1960, only 5.3% of children were born out of wedlock. In 2007, that percentage has risen to 37% That is not to impune single parents who work so hard at their job of raising children. However, there are quantifiable gains in a variety of social and personal areas where there is an active father and mother in the life of a child. That translates to society benefiting as a whole. That's not to say the sky is falling. I think there are many communities that are realizing this problem, particularly the African-American, and are introducing positive initiatives to combat this.

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Posted By: hrbaker

The flat tax is too simple and makes it too hard for the politicians on both of the aisle to "wh*re" themselves out to their special interests.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I say let people be, and everyone will be fine.

Edited to add: Al, all the election rhetoric should be retired. We need to move on to the real business.

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Posted By: hrbaker

The people have spoken, let's move forward.