What would you do?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

David:

Is that the monster of single issue, or 18/19/20 seperate issues?
Of 4-6 known Wagners in the 50's or the 60 or so now know to exist?
Is that the monster of myriad variations and errors not noted by Lipset and others and even today only being discovered by young whippersnapper enthusiasts?
If you didn't sound so serious, I'd be laughing my A#% off.

Seriously, you're starting to read like an angry know-it-all old man who thinks all knowledge is gotten through aging.
I just turned 40 and have absolutely no doubt there are younger collectors who have far more knowledge in areas of the hobby than I do, many of whom show a dedication to investigating the nuances and historical interest of cards that is truly inspiring.

I consider myself a bright guy, but I promise you I teach my 4 year old son that he will see things and understand things his old man never did. That his eyes and his mind are special and that there will come a time - probably from his early 20's into his middle thirties - where he is as sharp and intuitive and able to discern truth and knowledge as he is ever likely to be. And not to ever let old people who've become scared of the world and their place in it to shout him down.

But then that's me, I'm a believer in the power of the young and the inspiring.
I don't think I've been inspired by anyone over 50 other than listening to Bill Clinton discuss just about anything, and Mandela speaking of unity and love and forgiveness after suffering interminable seclusion from family and people. So I'll take the young enthusiastic knowledge of a Lifson over Lipset's any day.
Heck, Greenspan has almost proven by himself that you can be just as dumb as a log after doing the same thing for 50 years, as anybody possibly could.


Daniel

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

$10,000 is much too dear to me to be spent based on what some grading company says. I see too much stuff that I know they've gotten wrong.

Amen to the folks above who say that the buyer needs to have some knowledge about what he's doing. Especially at the $10k level.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

<<probably from his early 20's into his middle thirties - where he is as sharp and intuitive and able to discern truth and knowledge as he is ever likely to be>>

And then what's gonna happen?

Is he going to get stupider?

And why should he be listening to you now, anyway?

You're forty, for chrissakes!

(And I haven't become so scared of the world and my place in it that I have to rely on others to do what I am able to do myself.

I would think that being too frightened to make a big purchase until some anonymous referee told me it was OK would fit right in with being "scared of the word.")

My five-year-old son will probably be at his sharpest in his mid-twenties.

But he will only become wiser as he grows older.

(I'm sure your son will, too.)

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Posted By: David Atkatz

<<In making a decision, a collector often pools his knowledge and experience with the opinions of others (SGC, PSA, REA, others), which is a good approach. A collector should neither entirely rely on nor eschew expert opinions.>>

I completely agree, David.

The problem is in determining who is an expert. The self-proclaimed ones, who sell their opinions (but make sure their asses are covered, legally) don't impress me.

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Posted By: Marc S.

not having actively collected autographs for about 5-10 years, are we talking about the Goose Goslin front-signed plaque here?

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Posted By: Mark

Seems that way

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Evan,

Just so I am clear, are you saying this item was sold by an auction company, and that they knew but never disclosed that the card had at one time been authenticated by a recognized authentication company that subsequently rescinded its authentication?

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Posted By: Evan

Corey,
That is my understanding. In their defense, when asked they were forthcoming, although after the fact.

Mark & Marc,
In fairness to the companies involved I would rather wait before identifying any of the particulars. I think the situation, without the particulars, speaks for itself. I'm sure the learned members of this community can fill in the necessary blanks to form an opinion. I hope you understand.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Evan,

If that's the case then in my view you are not obligated to pay for the item on the grounds that the auction house intentionally withheld information that it knew or should have known would have been deemed material by a reasonably prudent bidder. That said, I agree with the advice that you seek other expert opinions on the authenticity of the signature. If they opine that the signature is genuine and you can as a result obtain a sufficient comfort level to allow you to enjoy the piece, you might want to keep it.

Going forward it's always a good idea to not assume all the bad info about an item will be disclosed. Especially with an item that is missing authentication from one of the big authenticators in the hobby. It's always a lot easier to ask questions before you place a bid than to deal with a post-auction dispute. Yes, I understand that sometimes there is a fear of inquiring too deeply for fear of tipping off a potential competitor. But my experience has been that almost always the main players are aware of what's going on, especially in regard to recognized auctions. And that you have a lot more to gain by doing exhaustive due diligence than believing the item will fall through the cracks.

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Posted By: Marty

I read over half but not all of this thread. This may have been said previously. Ask company B if they know the history of the piece and how it was rejected by company A. Ask B if they are still willing to stand behind the piece.

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Posted By: Anthony N.

<<<As a matter of fact, Jimmy has taken photos of many of the items in my collection, sports and historical, for his own reference files.) >>>

I hope this doesn't serve to hijack Evan's thread, but it does raise a question.

If the autograph experts can't or won't pass judgment on an auto from a scan, how is it that scans are suitable for exemplars?

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Posted By: jdrum

reminded of a line from Monty Python. Definition of an Expert - "Someone from out of town."

No highjack intended either.

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Posted By: Evan

To further clarify, the piece is slabbed by the second authenticating company. I have read all of your advice/opinions very carefully and I have decided to proceed in this manner. I am going to speak personally to the authenticator again and question the following;

1. Were you the one who authenticated the piece for the other company?
2. Why did they remove their sticker?
3. Does the consigner have any provenance or the history of the card?
4. Can you provide exemplars of the same signature in the time period?

For the auction company;

1. Why did the description not include the fact that the card had a sticker removed due to questionable authenticity?
2. Will you agree to have two additional recognized authenticators, of mutual agreement, look over the signature and render an opinion.
3. Same as #3 above

Would anyone venture an opinion on some of the more experienced, trustworthy, autograph experts. I will take a pass on C. Morales, D. Frangiapani, Jon Lovitz etc.

Thanks again to all who have chimed in

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Posted By: Marc S.

Richard Simon, whose autograph authentication ability I respect, has taken a pass on this thread, despite the notion that he very regularly reads [and posts] to these boards.

I previously had been a fan of James Spence -- but that was 15 years ago.

m

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<...Richard Simon,... has taken a pass on this thread>>


I find it totally understandable that Richard (and/or Jodi Birkholm) would take a pass on offering their opinions for free. I'm sure that, if contacted, they would both offer opinions, but for a fee. It's what they do for a living.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

<<If the autograph experts can't or won't pass judgment on an auto from a scan, how is it that scans are suitable for exemplars?>>

For once, I'll ome to the authenticators' defense.

What other choice is there? Clearly, they cannot own numerous examples of so many diverse autographs.

Even the best, most world-renowned art authenticators don't own too many Michelangelos, Leonardos, Vermeers, Rembrandts...

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Posted By: Marc S.

it was mentioned in the context that Richard Simon has been on autograph threads on Net 54 before trying to clean up the hobby, or specifically calling out inappropriate happenings [I believe the Coach's Corner thread most immediately comes to mind].

I don't think anyone is asking for him to offer his services for free here. All I was trying to elude to is that, for me, I find his silence telling.

m

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Posted By: Evan

Net54ers,
I'm sure you've all been on pins and needles wondering what I was going to do. After speaking with the consigner,(a real nice guy, very forthcoming), the auction house, (one of the good ones imo), and the authenticating companies, I have decided to pass on the item. As previously stated ad nauseum, I collect for the pleasure of it. Whether the item is real or not, I would never be able to look at it without a tinge of doubt, therefore I could not enjoy it. I wish to thank all of you who chimed in with advice and guidance, and to those who took the time to email me privately. Leon, I also appreciate you allowing me to go O/T and use the board for my issue. BTW Mr Lichtman, I recently moved to Rockaway NY from Brooklyn and have started collecting some nice shells. I will be sending them to CM for authenticating.

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Posted By: Matt

Evan - glad everything worked out for you. Since it has been resolved, can you let out the specifics now?

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Posted By: dan mckee

That is neat, there is a Rockaway NY? There is a Rockaway NJ for sure too.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Dan,
Rockaway is a beach community on the Brookly-Queens border.

Matt,
Since the card is being sold to the underbidder I would not want to out the piece in the forum. I believe he has been made aware of the situation. If you would like some specifics for your own education, you can feel free to email me privately and I could answer whatever questions you may have. It may take awhile since I have the honor of accompanying my children and 7 others on a thrilling round of trick or treating. Pray for me