What would you do?

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Posted By: Evan

Although I have been an active collector in my chosen field for about a decade, I find myself in a situation I have never encountered. I would greatly appreciate the input of the members of this board. I am NOT looking to point fingers or suggest improprieties on the part of those involved, I am looking for advice and/or opinions on how to proceed. I was recently the winner of an autographed card, one that is the "jewel" of this particular set. It was authenticated by one of the two leading autograph authenticating companies. I was pleasantly surprised to be the high bidder since there is a fellow collector (with more means) that usually buys the best of the set. I contacted him after the sale to ask if he was aware of the sale and he informed me that he was. He explained that he had reason to question the background of the card. He suggested that I contact the seller and ask about the history. After speaking to the auction company, authenticating company and a few other contacts, I was able to ascertain the following; Years ago the card was authenticated by Company A. When the owner decided to sell, the card was sent back to Company A, who refused to recognize the signature as authentic. The sticker was removed and the loa was destroyed. Word is that money was exchanged. The card then went to Company B, who after examining the card, authenticated it. The auction company was contacted and they were forthcoming about the issue, regarding the removal of the sticker and loa.
My issue is that although autograph authenticating is subjective, and differences of opinion do occur, the situation was not disclosed in the items description. I can't say if I would have paid in the neighborhood of 10k if I had been privy to this info. Although my intention has always been to hand down my collection to my sons, I fear there will be a lingering doubt in my mind as to the authenticity. I have yet to pay for the card (I am not one to ever back out of a deal) and hope the learned members of this board can help me with this "real mess.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Evan -
I think this one liner from your post says it all for me.
"the situation was not disclosed in the items description".

Your concern is very reputable in this case due to this alone.

Tony A.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Evan,

You post sums up, in one paragraph, why I have never been very interested in collecting autographs.

Who are the authenticators and auction company involved? I realize you may not want to name names, but, unfortunately, in this type of situation, the reputation of the company involved plays a big part.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I would solicit (pay for if needed) the opinions of a couple of other recognized autograph experts. If they feel the autograph is authentic, you would be more comfortable in your purchase and have the additional votes of approval for your records. If they feel the autograph has is not authentic, then you can rightly complain about the lack of disclosure.

The most significant question is whether or not the autograph is genuine, not what this or that company wrote on a piece of paper. Soliciting additional expert opinions will help in judging the authenticity.

I'm no autograph expert, and certainly not someone whose opinion you should solicit on the autograph, but know that, for various and sometimes technical reasons, both PSA and SGC have refused to holder genuine baseball cards. This doesn't make the card fake.

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Posted By: Evan

Both authenticating companies are the most widely used by all of the larger auction companies. I have used both for many years and have enjoyed a cordial relationship with both. The auction company is well regarded, and I have dealt with them on many other occasions without incident. As for having it looked at by another autograph expert, I would have to have the card in hand. Most experts I am familiar with would not authenticate from a scan. Plus, they all work for the two involved. Thanks for the input.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Evan -
I might be in the minority here but $10K is alot of money to send someone
if there's doubt involving authenticity. I don't care who the auction
company is or if the information was found out after the auction ended
i'd try to find out more info from some other reputable people before cutting
that check or your risking never seeing the funds again without major headaches.
Just telling you what I would do.

Tony A.

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Posted By: Evan

Tony,
I've tried to look at the situation from all angles. Two people can look at the same signature and by using exemplars, magnifying glass, infrared etc, come up with different opinions. I realize the only way to be 100% sure of a signature is to get it on my own. I have seen in the past, different signatures, be turned down by one company and okayed by the other. What bothers me more was the description did not include the whole story. There was no way for me to have received the info before the end of the auction without "outing" it to the person I figured would outbid me. Even then, I had no idea he was privy to any info.
Evan

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Evan -
What would trouble me most here is exactly what you stated again below.

You said - "What bothers me more was the description did not include the whole story."

This concern alone would keep me from sending $10K to someone without more investigation.
If the auction company raises stink here with your concern when they didn't include all
known information on the piece, let em'. Were not talk'in chump change here.

Tony A.

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Posted By: Evan

Where and/or how would you continue to investigate. BTW, I am not cutting the check before I feel comfortable doing so.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Evan- you said "word is that money was exchanged." If I understand this correctly, are you saying that somebody was paid under the table to keep this incident quiet? If that is the case, and it were me, I would not buy the card, and I would seriously question the authenticity of the signature.

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Posted By: Evan

Barry,
I have heard that if an authenticating company has a piece authenticated by one in it's employ, and later it is determined that the company will not stand behind that authentication, the owner of the piece is compensated monetarily. I do not believe there was any attempt to deceive anyone by the authenticating company. They just did not want their name on the piece any further. I apologize if I made it seem as if there was any kind of conspiracy.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

And I came up with the answer, at least for myself, a couple months ago. I thought about posting on the topic but didn't......

In the end autos are genuine or not as much as they are authenticated as such, or have the kind of step by step provenance that is impenetrable.
If i signed my own name 50 times and only 30 of them came back as genuine, then regardless of what I know to be true - only the 30 authenticated are actually of value to the wider collecting community. If I sell them myself with the provenance of having been the original author all 50 may be acceptable, but add just one degree of seperation - say the next time they are sold - and the only ones worth tuppence are the 30 the 'experts' can agree on.
And there is absolutely nothing to argue with.

There is sufficient variation every time pen is laid to paper that it's the ONLY way to give authenticity and value to such an item. Otherwise EVERY auto. is real and every forger has an endless vocation.

So, if you trust company B with their estimation and they themselves are still comfortable with the certification, what's to stress about? If you believe company B is at all questionable in their opinons then that is a different story!
A good price you believe, an item you value, certified by a group of experts you trust....there is no quandry apart from shoddy auction house descriptions.

For that I'd just avoid using the aution house in the future.


Daniel




Edited to improve the readablity of a sentence.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Evan -
My investigation would begin with me contacting the auction house to discuss my concern. Ask them to explain to you what their decision was as to why they didn't include all information on the item before putting it up for auction. It also sounds like you already have some other contacts involved as well that are familiar with this piece. Getting them involved would be in your best interest to. I would put no time limit on finding the facts before sending funds. If this auction company has any sort of reputation they will understand and should back you 100%. If they don't I think you'll know your answer pretty quick on where you stand as a customer.

Tony A.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Daniel:

"Genuineness" (or lack thereof) is an intrinsic property of an autograph.

It cannot be conferred upon a signature by an outside party.

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Posted By: Dennis

you state "opinions differ","authenticating is subjective" so if you trust the authenticator and the auction house i would think you would be happy with the item. if "money really was exchanged" then i'm sure the item would have been destroyed at that time,correct?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Evan- thanks for the clarification; however, I don't like what I am hearing. If company A says it's good, and company B disagrees, as far as I'm concerned I would be out. I would only consider it if all parties believed it was authentic.

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Posted By: Evan

All points are well taken. I agree completely with Daniel, if I sign a check in the morning, it will be quite different on my tab at happy hour. Tony, I do plan to speak with the auction house tomorrow, I will have a few questions I need answered. Dennis, I don't think the item would be destoyed, their opinion would not be considered ironclad evidence that the signature was fake.

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Posted By: Evan

Barry,
As much as I have been comfortable with the services of both companies in the past, (even when submissions did not go as I had hoped), I too, am troubled. That's why I requested the help. All is appreciated.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

[Noun; legal slang] When searching for an expert to opine on a matter for money.

It isn't pretty but it sums up the process. Authenticators FUBAR their work regularly, as sting and test repeatedly prove. They also refuse things that are good. I have had autographs I or friends collected in person rejected as fakes; I've had autographs rejected at one time and authenticated at other times. If you are convinced the item is good and you want it, and you trust the authenticator that offered the auction opinion, call the auctioneer and offer to spring for a full LOA from the expert whose auction letter is being used. If they will give you a full LOA and you are happy with the autograph, forget about the history and chalk up the first authenticator's refusal to a bad day. Otherwise, if there is any discomfort, the auction house should allow you to get out. Not that they will; after all, they will say, you didn't bid on a "rejected by A and authenticated by B" item, you bid on an "authenticated by B" item. IMO that's BS, but I can see an auction house standing on that point.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: barrysloate

Good luck with the resolution.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

David, I agree and I don't.

There is an essential truth or genuineness to every moment and action.

If a swimmer does a flying 50 'crawl' under 20 seconds but none are there to time it - yes it happened. But it's unverifiable and as such has no intrinsic value other than in the unabridge unwritten history of the universe. Even the swimmer is unaware of the truth of the moment.
If his/her parent is there and times it on a stop watch, again the moment happens but similarly gains no legitimacy to anyone outside the family. Really, whose going to believe my mom anyway .
But have that swim be at a sanctioned meet with 'experts' there to verify the time and the record comes into being - regardless of the genuineness of other previously successful attempts.

Similarly an auto, so often witnessed only by a first account holder and whose history is lost immediately after, can have no genuiness that is acceptable to everyone minus expert verification - monetarily anyway. Otherwise we must believe the charlatans as readily as Joe the plumber - our latest oracle.

Sure you can hold onto that ball your uncle gave you along with the story of it's getting and fervently believe in its genuineness, but to anyone else paying for it the authenticity can only be determined by those we believe learned enough to make such prognostications.

Otherwise - my doodle's as good as yours is as good as sinatra's .


Daniel

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Good luck Evan. Hope my input helped.

Tony A.

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Posted By: Evan

BB,
My reply is getting bounced back to me. Your email is blocked.




Thanks Tony, I appreciate the suggestions, and will follow up

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I completely disagree, Daniel. And the idea that an autograph is not genuine unless some kid at PSA or Jimmy Spence says it is is alarming, if not absurd.

I have seen both major authenticators "OK" a well-known 1940 Gehrig rubber-stamp signature. I'm sure you'll agree that the fact that the stamped "signature" was then "re-sellable" in no way made it genuine.

It behooves any serious collector to become knowledgeable enough to trust his own judgment over that of the kids that work at PSA or JSA.

Not knowing your own collecting material well enough to trust yourself, but rather relying on a third party to ensure that what you buy is "real" and can be resold is not collecting. It's investing. And, I believe, it's not investing wisely.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Hey David,

You can be your own best expert in putting your collection together, you just can't ask anyone else to trust in that judgement.

A rubber stamped auto. certified as original is of course a horrible mistake, and the more you know as a collector the more often you can sieve out the more obvious mistakes.

Nonetheless, if you decide a shortened loop and missing flourish in an auto is insignificant and you have confidence you know an auto to be genuine.....well, good for you. I'm just not going to buy something based on your judgements unless others in the industry either employ and/or repect your opinion as to be expert enough to render such opinion. Otherwise I can ask my neighbour what he thinks.
I guess I might miss out on a steal because of it, but when an item has absolutely zero value outside of its perceived authenticity - I'll only shell out when I think a proffessional estimation raises the percentages my way.

This isn't a lagerfeld dress that as an orginal is worth 15k, and as a beautiful knock off is still worth 500 bucks as a well made dress.

An auto takes between 1.5 and 2.5 seconds to render, and so has no intrinsic value of substance or effort outside it's authenticity.
And if every joe shmuck can equally claim to know and verify said authenticity, well again equally the thousands of autos that will flood the market as newly opined real will have zero value.

In this instance I repectfully think your missing the boat.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with investing versus collecting. I just want to feel - when I look at the pieces of memorabilia i treasure - that they in all likelihood are genuinely as they represent. Otherwise I can replace the lot for $150 in fakes and be satisfied without the smell, feel and aura that old genuine items create inside of me.


Daniel

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Posted By: JB

I am no auto expert, however,i have many PSA/DNA and Spence authenticated pieces. Unless i was completetly at ease with the scenario you present i would not part with the funds. (just my two)

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Posted By: Evan

With respect to Mr Atkatz, when my car has a noise or my plumbing has a leak, I may attempt to fix it. As a car oowner and a homeowner I have tried to familiarize myself as much as I can with certain repairs but there are some things I just don't have enough experience with. I have been to jsa's offices and have sat with Mr Spence at Mantles restaurant in NYC and tried to pick his brain as he looked over pieces in my collection. Has he made errors, of course, but I am paying him for his many years of experience in dealing with autographs. I have read numerous posts here about both psa and jsa, and have seen stories in numerous other periodicals about errors, but I do feel more comfortable with them than flying solo with signatures I am not sure of. I can look at the esteemed Coaches Corners auctions and know they are not real, but have made some unfortunate errors on my own. I have sent a fellow collector to Richard Simon, due to his reputation, not because of personal dealings. While I do sell some autographs to help finance my pursuit of full signed sets, I do this for the enjoyment of "the hunt".

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

This thread is Exhibit A for the argument that collecting expensive autographs is not worth the risk. Both sides of the argument make sense, unfortunately, so there really is no good solution. As for James Spence's massive expertise all I keep thinking of is "Sal Bando."

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Posted By: Evan

While I cringed while watching it, I can hardly condemn him for the laziness of an employee. Kind of like notarizing a form without the signer present. And I really should have collected shells at the beach, less drama.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Evan, I disagree. How do you know another 'lazy employee' didn't authenticate an expensive autograph in your collection? But I agree that shell collecting would be a much less stressful hobby -- and one much less rife with fraud.

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Posted By: Evan

Jeff,
Point taken, but why would somebody go to a card show, buy a ticket to get Sal Bando's autograph in person, then pay to get it authenticated? It was a setup, one that the momo fell for. I do however, bring any autographs of value in personally to jsa. With psa I send them directly to the person in charge of submissions. Then I pray

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Posted By: samuel

sal bando's rookie is one of my favorite cards.

if I were you I wouldn't worry about backing out of the deal. why should you honor it when the other party tried to mislead you? this weekend I backed out of a deal for the first time ever. it was a very small amount of money and I feel horrible about it. I had fair reason, but not nearly as much as you do.

on collecting autographs, I wouldn't worry about authenticity unless you have reason, as in this case. even if two companies authenticate it, it could just be a brilliant forgery. it's the nature of what you're dealing with, and if you enjoy it enough that shouldn't stop you. in all likelihood almost all of your signatures are real, and simply doing your best to ensure that should be comforting enough.

good luck.

edit: I forgot, it was an auction company. maybe not a case of misleading, but I guess the consignor would be benefitted in consequence.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

In my case, I have been collecting vintage Yankee and historical autographs since 1965. Obtained my fist Ruth then, and my first Gehrig a year later. Still have them, and they are authentic. (Jimmy has seen them, in case you don't trust me. As a matter of fact, Jimmy has taken photos of many of the items in my collection, sports and historical, for his own reference files.) I have been researching the history of the people that interest me since then, as well as the autograph field in general. (I have been studying auction and dealer catalogs since the mid-sixties.)

I have never offered my services commercially, but that does not make me any less qualified. I daresay I've been at it a bit longer than Mr. Spence, and certainly longer than anyone at PSA. I understand that my opinion is worth nothing in the marketplace, as I have no reputation. But that's not the reason I have learned what I have learned. It has been, and continues to be, a labor of love.

I understand your point, Daniel, but what I'm saying is simply this. If you need PSA or SGC to tell you whether or not a card you want is genuine, then you are not a serious card collector. Pay your dues, and rely on yourself first. The same holds true for autographs.

One of my hobbies is flying airplanes. There's a reason why that first solo is such an important event.

There's a thread here about the "most knowledgeable people in the hobby." Almost to a person the people cited are long-time collectors, not the professional card authenticators and graders. The same holds true for autographs.

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Posted By: 1934Tour

I don't normally chime in here, just a long time lurker who enjoys reading the board. Let me start by saying that I am an autograph collector. I can understand why cards are desirable however they have never "done it" for me. Often, posts on this board leave me scratching my head. This is a card collector crowd so we can assume that the majority are working on a rudimentary knowledge of autographs which is the same as my level of knowledge regarding baseball cards. Just as many of you wonder how anyone can lay down good money for an autograph which could be a well executed forgery, my jaw drops at the prices paid for cards even though I am convinced that most high grade examples have been doctored even though placed in a PSA or SGC holder. My point is not stir the pot - rather to illustrate that to comment on a particular field of endevour while only having a layman's knowledge means that the only conclusion that can be reached is one that is uniformed and thus probably (at least partially) wrong. Just as many of you are able to put years of experience to work and assess a card regardless of what holder it is in, I can look at a signature and do the same. That being said, it all boils down to a matter of degree. There are signatures I can view and be 100% confident are authentic, these are the pieces I add to my collection. There are others which I will have only a certain degree of comfort with and thus will pass. I assume that many of you card collectors are the same way. In the end I have built an enjoyable collection which I am sure contains a forgery or two just as I am convinced that all of those world class card collections out there which have been well screened contain a card or two that have been doctored.

It sounds as though you have been pursuing this particular set long enough to know more than the average Joe which leaves you more than equipped to asses your comfort level. Without knowing exactly what piece you are referring to (although I am pretty sure I have a good idea) I would say the fact that the collector against whom you usually compete layed off this sale is pretty telling. If it is the card I am thinking of, we both know that the recent offering represented just about the only chance either you will ever have to add that piece signed in that manner to your collection. Surely, the competing collector would have jumped at the chance to outbid you.

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Posted By: Evan

I'm sure we are on the same page. My fellow collector passed on the advice of another. Would you venture a personal opinion on the piece. Either way, thanks for the post.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Well David, thanks for the lesson on what it is to be a real collector!
I myself would never dream of telling someone the worthiness to their methods for enjoying in a child's hobby. I guess enthusiasts who collect issues for which maybe 1-3 exemplars are known are complete dufuses, for how could they truly know what makes a genuine example from such rare and scarely understood or noted issues. It might take a hundred years before they were to see or hold another copy - but you're right......the getting of extra opinons from grading companies (and my clear preferance would be SGC) precludes them from 'collector' status.
Phooey on them if they should feel more comfort from the extra knowledge of others in the industry who just may have dealt with cards most of us have never seen or held in our own paws. I mean, you just don't deserve to own an orange borders Wagner if you don't understand every intricacy of the issue and its issuance.

For me, just because wrongly identified and poorly graded cards show up exhibiting error in either knowledge, judgement, or data entra, does not the rule make that no expertise greater than our own resides at grading companies.


Daniel

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Posted By: David Atkatz

One or two exemplars are known, but the kid at the grading company (like the kid who graded the Gretsky Wagner) has seen them.

Right.

A child's hobby? Maybe in 1956. That hardly holds true today.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

the kid who graded the Gretzky rookie???

You're kidding right?



I guess I must have been an investor in the 70's when I collected my sets of Scanlens Aussie Rules cards .


Ah well, to each his own David.


Edited to add: I realize what you meant, but mis-typed as I was thinking. Shows how great I'd be if given a chance at PSA .

My comment remains, the Gretzky Wagner was not a fly through estimation on authenticity or grade or even it's unusual discovery and subsequent metamorphosis by any KID.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Not the Gretsky rookie. The Gretsky Wagner. I'm sure you've heard of it. It's that trimmed, hand-cut from a sheet card that everyone keeps talking about. You know. The one that, their inviolate rules notwithstanding, PSA graded anyway.

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Posted By: 1934Tour

Regarding the card, as we are both aware this particular signer had a very limited window of opportunity to sign it thus accounting for it's rarity. He was basically at the end of his life and all material from that period is pretty suspect.

Just about every Hall of Famer who answered mail requests had someone helping them (secreterial autographs) at some point and he was no exception. For most casual hobbyists, so much of this bad material is floating around that they basically confuse it for being real as it is commonly seen (and unfortunatly sold as real by dealers - propelling the need for authenticators who I assure all do not let 99.999999% of this material slip through).

If you are involved in collecting long enough there is usually some "rosetta stone" that comes along, some piece which would have zero meaning to others, which sheds light on what is right and what is wrong (for example, a note written by family member in response to a request reading to the effect "Mr. such and such can no longer sign"). Often, their writing of the last name will bear strong resemblance to the suspect autograph. In this case, I have seen no such "rosetta stone" from that point in his life which would lead me believe that is real or fake. For that reason, I would not have had reached my comfort level threshold. Essentially that is how I would handle this. Ask all involved to produce some evidence. If the piece was authenticated we can presume that there are exemplars which will substantiate.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

<<For most casual hobbyists, so much of this bad material is floating around that they basically confuse it for being real as it is commonly seen (and unfortunatly sold as real by dealers - propelling the need for authenticators who I assure all do not let 99.999999% of this material slip through).>>

My point exactly.

If you're often spending upwards (and sometimes quite a bit upwards) of a grand on an autograph, you shouldn't be a casual hobbyist. If you are often doing so, but are not qualified to judge authenticity yourself, you are an investor, and not what I would call a serious collector.

To my mind, the qualifier serious has to do with the depth and breadth of one's knowledge, and not with the depth of one's pockets.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

<<My comment remains, the Gretzky Wagner was not a fly through estimation on authenticity or grade or even it's unusual discovery and subsequent metamorphosis by any KID.>>

No?

Are you familiar with who did the grading?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Yes I am.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Sure sounds like a kid to me. Hadn't yet been born when Lipset and others were figuring out the Monster.

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Posted By: 1934Tour

but David, while I understand what you are saying I repectfully think that you may be stressing your point a bit to far. I drive a car which cost far more than I have ever spent on autograph. I am aware, for example, that cars have alternators but if my life depended on it I couldn't even point to the general area where one may be. For that I rely on a mechanic. I am however schooled on the basic level of understanding that is has four wheels and goes in the direction in which I steer. I enjoy driving that car but if you told me the only way I should do so is if I built it from the groud up I would be at the bus stop in the morning.

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Posted By: Evan

Your analogy and opinions on the subject are perfection. I will take your advice and pay a visit to one of those involved. I fear this "Rosetta Stone" might have to be thrown. The saddest part is my back signed version, authenticated by the other company, is so similar. Thank you very much

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Inaccurate analogy. You're not a car collector. What you have presented is akin to a person deciding to own one basball card, and he asks a friend, or refers to some collecting book, to choose which single card to buy. Would you ask him for his advice as to the authenticity of the next rare card you buy?

I would argue that a serious car collector could change the alternator on the car he drives. And a really serious car collector could change the alternator--or rather the generator--on most cars in his collection.

Ask Jay Leno.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A buyer either knows or doesn't know that a card or autograph or poster is genuine. I'd never advise a collector to spend $10,000 on an item that he doesn't know is authentic. If a collector regularly spends that kind of dough on memorabilia he doesn't know is authentic, he's going to get burned sometime.

In making a decision, a collector often pools his knowledge and experience with the opinions of others (SGC, PSA, REA, others), which is a good approach. A collector should neither entirely rely on nor eschew expert opinions.

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Posted By: Evan

David,
I was referring to the gentlemans post on how he would proceed with my issue. As for if I am a collector or invetor, I am collecting this series in the hopes of giving it to my children so they can continue when I am no longer able. I do have what I feel is an authentic autograph of this signee, purchased from Seth Boyd, may he rest in peace, so I was quite comfortable until after the sale concluded. I probably am not as thorough as I should be, but try to do my due diligence. Sometimes we get blinded by the light, I guess.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Even, I was not referring to your post, but rather to 1934Tour's last post.