Sets that are Incorrectly Dated & Creating Future Change....

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Posted By: Jeremy

Ted Z got my mind spinning a bit regarding the below post from another thread and it makes me wonder what it might take to create change with Hobby Giants, etc. Everyone on the board has area's of expertise and opinions regarding the years produced for a lot of issues. I would like to explore this more as recently I acquired a T210 card that has a date stamp on the back that reads May 15th 1907. (What tha.... !??!) I thought 1910 was the year produced, but this makes me realize that these were probably produced over a 3 year period, much like the T206 set 1909-11. Maybe this is common knowledge, but if the T210 Red Border set is 1907-1910, why doesn't our hobby start recognizing these changes ? Ted Z's post below says it all and I have to agree... There needs to be change to more accurately reflect the years produced for these vintage issues. (See Ted's rant below....)

Hey DARREN, JON and LEON...... June 11 2008, 1:23 PM


FORGET IT ! !

There are many sets we have realized are incorrectly dated and NO effort is being made to correct them.....

N28 is an 1888 issue

N162 is an 1889 issue

E90-1 and E91 are 1908-1910 issues

A Goudey Lajoie (#106) is called a 1933 Goudey, when we all know it was issued with the 1934 Hi# series cards.

And, after 30 years of "pounding", I was able to convince many that the "1948-49" Leaf BB set is actually a 1949
issue....PERIOD. However, the Grading Co. will continue to perpetuate this myth by labelling their flips "1948-49".

So, I'm telling you guys that you are fighting a losing battle.

Anyway, consider this....a 518, or 520, or 522, or even a 524-card T206 sets tough enough....leave well enough
alone......a 590-card set (by including the T213-1) is impossible.

Regards,

T-Rex TED






~ Jeremy ~

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Posted By: Ted Sherman

The "1911" Turkey reds were issued in 1910, since the "offer" expires June of 1911, it is kinda a no-brainer they had to be made in 1910.

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Posted By: Darren

I think for some of these corrections to "stick" they would require recognition and acceptance by a majority of major hobby publications. They are fun to ponder but until they are in print they will not be accepted by the majority--no matter how sensible they are!

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Posted By: Phil Garry

It would be tough for the grading companies to change their flip dates now as so many would have been graded using the old year(s) and when you access the pop reports, you would have to look up at least two searches per card (1948 Leaf & 1949 Leaf, etc.) That being said, I think that is probably the only way to get the newly revised issue date(s) in the consciousness of the general collecting public, at least those collectors that deal primarily with graded cards.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hang on now, Jeremy...

What player in the Old Mill red border set do you have with 1907 stamped on the back? Have you checked to see if he was with that team in 1907???

I agree that some sets are identified in the guides with an incorrect date. I think the Metropolitan Studios set of the Cardinals should be 1932. I think it was produced AFTER the 1931 season, in honor of the World Champions. I think that some of the players are depicted with odd backgrounds because they weren't around in early 1932 for photographing, so old images of those players were reworked. Still, the guides say 1931.

I could take a 1954 Willie Mays NY Giants card, or a 1967 Willie Mays SF Giants card, or a 2006 Barry Bonds SF Giants card and stamp '1907' on the back, that doesn't make the card that old. Someone could have taken a T210 card in 1915 and stamped 1907 on the back for a kid for his 8th birthday... Lots of reasons why a card could have that on the back.

I think 1910 is correct for the Old Mill red border tobacco cards, the T210s. But I'd love to know who the player is on that card, so I could check to see if he was in baseball in 1907, and if so what his team was.

Thanks.

Frank.

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Posted By: Jeremy

Frank,

Interesting you should ask... This card is from your beloved Series 6 out of Frankfort. Funny thing is, the Gent's name is torn off. Maybe you can help me with his name. I will say this... He has a great head of hair. Anyway, check out the scan and let me know your thoughts... As with anything I comment on, I merely suggest, as I can't possibly know the answer to something like this, but it generates curious thought as I know the Blue Grass league was functional back in the 1907-08 era, but may lack documentation to substantiate. I get your whole "Old stamp" scenario, but I gotta believe it is more likely (If we are placing odds) that a card would have a time stamp that was close to the year it was produced as opposed to time stamping a card that was already 3 years old. Debate can go either way and obviously anything is possible, but the facts we do know is that Frankfort was playing before 1910. The question is whether this guy was playing before 1910. I hope it is clear cut and he was not, as it will make this easier to understand, but if he was documented as playing in 1907-8 then it makes me wonder... With 640 cards in T210, and 8 series, I would have to wonder if they produced these over 3 years like the T206 set... My scans are a bit grainy, but if you look closely on the reverse you can see the date May 15th, 1907. Talk about a beater...



~ Jeremy ~

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Posted By: Zach Rice

The player's name is Cornell.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

I have some pretty thorough Excel files sent to me by a researcher on the Bluegrass Leagues and was quickly able to determine Cornell playing for Frankfort in '08. That is the earliest year for which I have a file.

Shawn

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Posted By: Scot

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The Blue Grass League was active 1908 to 1912, and 1922 to 1924. There was the KIT League (Kentucky, Indiana, Tennessee) or Kitty League 1903-1906, 1910-1914, 1916, 1922-1924, 1935-1942, and 1946-1955.

I don't think Frankfort had a team in any league recognized by the National Association in 1907. Frankfort had a team in the 1908 to 1912 Blue Grass League; and also in the Ohio State League in 1915 and 1916.

So I think you have an errant date stamp there. But you do have the card identified!!! Gotta love those series 6 cards!!!

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Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

Frank, I wondered about the 1931 Metropolitan Studios myself. After doing some quick research, I found that every player in the set played in 1931 EXCEPT Dizzy Dean. I don't know why he would have been included in this set as he only played 1 game in 1930 and none in 1931. Grimes, High, and Roettger were traded on 12-31-1931, and Chick Hafey was traded on 4-11-32, they are included in this set. Tony Kaufmann, also included, only played 1 game in 1935 after the 1931 season ended. It may have been printed after the World Series, but why is Dizzy Dean in the set?

Randy

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Posted By: Jeremy

Frank,

Cornell played for Frankfort from 1908-12. Errant stamp date from this angle... Oddly enough, I still have a hard time thinking they got the 640 cards out in 1 year.... Something tells me it took longer... Anyway, one fun fact was Cornell played for the Frankfort LawMakers.... Could T210 be from 1908 or 1909 ? What are your thoughts on it being produced in 1910 only ?

~ Jeremy ~

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

It is a big undertaking to produce such a huge set in one year, but some spot checking bears it out.

I can't speak for any other Series, but consider Ser 6. Maysville moved from Shelbyville midway through the 1910 season. Thus, the Maysville players could have NOT been made before 1910. Stengel, in particular, started in the league in 1910. While my Womble is a Shelbyville player (thanks Frank W!), I cannot seem to locate him on the team before 1910, so his was probably made early in the season of 1910 before the team moved.

Maybe someone heavily involved in the other Series can offer a contradiction, but my quick checking still seems like 1910.

Shawn

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Good analysis, Shawn. And you're welcome for the Womble, he has a good home with you.

Mr. Lipset's dating of T210 was good enough for me, and I've not encountered anything to change that.

In his great resource, vol. 3 of the Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards (that all of us should own!!) he mentions Tony Thebo being with Waco in 1909 and 1910, and that he's in T206 and T210 with Waco. That would probably preclude 1908. Mr. Lipset observes that Joe Martina's card shows him with Savanah, his only year there was 1910... Casey Stengel played one year at Maysville, Kentucky, 1910.



I think production on these T210s was a process, not an instantaneous thing. I think the first of them were being worked on at the end of the 1909 season, and they might have appeared at the very end of 1909, more likely very early 1910. I think card production continued into early 1910. And that is why some cards are found less often than others, and why there is a bit of pose or team variation. I think the first 3 series came early on, and continued throught production, which is why they're less difficult to locate today. Then 4 and 5; then 6, 7, and 8. I think the series 6 cards were about as plentiful as the series 8 cards initially, but that today there aren't as many because folks would throw the cards away after the player wasn't in baseball any more. The series 8 players had a good shot at going on up to the majors, gaining a bit of fame for that, so that folks would be less inclined to discard the cards. 1910 seems about right to me.