Thursday nite Trivia

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Who pitched the 1st official PERFECT No-Hitter in the National League ?

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Posted By: Rawn Hill

Wild stab........Lee Richmond?

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: barrysloate

John Ward also pitched one soon after.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

bonus question:

who was the first left handed pitcher to throw a no-hitter in the national league?

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Posted By: Neal

Lee Richmond
06-12-1880

Pitcher's Team vs. Opponent
Worcester 1 vs Cleveland 0

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Posted By: barrysloate

Didn't Ward throw his like five days after Richmond?

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Posted By: Rawn Hill

Yes, June 17th.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Richmond and Ward, indeed pitched Perfect games.....however, they are not the answer to this Quiz.

Re-read the the question, it has a qualifier in it.

TED Z

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Well Richmond is credited with the first official perfect game in National League history so I'm not sure who else it could be. This one seems pretty basic too since it's well known that Richmond and Ward both threw perfect games within 5 days of each other.

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Posted By: Tim

Best I can tell after the above mentioned, the next National League perfect game was thrown by Jim Bunning.

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Posted By: Gil

Grin Bradley

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Posted By: Gil

Ernie Shore

but that was the AL

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

84 years after Richmond and Ward did it, Jim Bunning pitched his Perfect Game at Shea Stadium.

The difference is that Jim pitched a distance of 60' 6"......while Richmond and Ward pitched a distance of only 45'

Source.....the book "PERFECT", by James Buckley, Jr.

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Posted By: Tim

SWEET!! What do I win?

edited to include sarcasm in above: Thanks for the entertainment Ted Z.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

wasn't 45 feet an official distance?

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Posted By: JimB

I don't understand why the earlier two were not perfect. If the mound gets moved back again, will we have to start over?
Jimb

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted,as everyone has guessed prior, Richmond threw an official pefect game no-hitter whatever you want to call it. The source you have is wrong. The distance doesnt matter because Richmond and Ward had no choice but to pitch from where they did as per the official league rules. Bunning might have pitched the first one from that distance but that doesnt make it anymore official than the other two

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I love Ted's trick questions.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

the answer to my question was hooks wiltse.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Are they not recognized today as "Official" because of the pitching distance? How about Hoss Radbourn's season win record?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

They are official Dan, Buckley,the author who Ted references,cited that there were 16 perfect games up to that point which includes Richmond and Ward,then when Randy Johnson pitched his in 2004,Buckley updated the book to say the story of baseball's 17 perfect games. I don't know why Ted thinks the pitching distance should matter,but it doesn't

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hmmm...then why is Nolan Ryan credited with the official season strikeout record?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Im pretty sure Ryan has always been the "official" leader because they didnt know about the prior total due to completely researched records. If you go to most sites though they will tell you that Kilroy holds the single season record and Ryan holds the modern era record. Ryan never even had the major league record if you discount American Association or Union Association stats,saying they werent equal major leagues like the NL did back then. Both Radbourne and Charles Buffinton had higher single season NL strikeout totals.

Theres plenty of modern records that arent officially the records but recognized as such. Rickey Henderson doesnt have the single season steal record but by modern rules/scoring he has the highest total. Look at every story when Joe Nuxhall died,claiming he was the youngest player when in fact he wasn't. He was just the youngest known at the time,and when they found out guys were younger they were dismissed as 19th century players when the game was different. Only a few stories got it right when they said Nuxhall was the youngest player in modern baseball history

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

how accurate are kilroy's stats though? i find it at least a little funny that a guy goes from striking out 500 batters to barely topping 200 as his next highest total.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Theyre accurate,look at the league strikeout totals as they dropped a ton as well. In basically the same amount of games the league went from over 4700 K's to just over 3000 K's the next season. The rules back then changed almost yearly,one of which was the restrictions on how a pitcher could throw. Prior they had to deliver the ball underhand,sort of a fast pitch softball delivery,but when they were allowed to throw overhand they were able to throw harder,throw different pitches and the batters had to adjust to it and it shows in the league strikeouts

1885- 3378 in slightly less games
1886-4730
1887-3076

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

interesting. i'm also curious, who was younger than nuxhall?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Fred Chapman,1887 Philadelphia A's,14 years and 8 months and Billy Geer 1874 New York Mutuals was about 15 years and 2 months. Nuxhall was around 15 years and 10 months old

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

hmmm just 1 game. its possible he happened to be attending the game and they let him play. doesn't seem like he was a pro. still pretty cool though.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

whether the pitching distance was 45' or 11'...at that time (apperantly) that was the official distance...therefore both teams had the same advantages/disadvantages. so, IMO, any achievements were official. just like the 154 game season vs. 162...remember roger maris was eventually credited with the single season HR record.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Man, you guys are trying to discourage me from posting an occasional Trivia quiz....CONTROVERSY GALORE ! !

1st....I'm not detracting anything from John Montgomery Ward. He had a long and versatile career and is a
great HOFer.
But, we all have played HARDBALL, and have also played SOFTBALL. So, I challenge anyone here to tell me
that the shorter pitching distance to home plate does not make a significant difference ?
Especially if....as a batter (playing Softball)....you are facing a really FAST-Pitch pitcher.

2nd....You can argue with me all you want, but you can't deny that the pitching rules were very different
when Lee Richmond and John M. Ward pitched their Perfect games. Not only was the pitching distance 15'
shorter, the rules in 1880 forced you to pitch in an underhand fashion.

All that said......let's consider Jim Bunning's performance. Yes, we know he is the only Major Leaguer to
achieve No-Hitter's in both Leagues. Perhaps, we can give some cedit for this to his battery mate in both
No-Hitters....Gus Triandos....ha !

More so, Bunning has been successful because ranks among the top 4 HOF pitchers with respect to a very
important stat.....

STRIKEOUTS/WALKS ratio......

3.20.....Ferguson Jenkins

2.95.....Christy Mathewson

2.94.....Sandy Koufax

2.85.....Jim Bunning

The significance of this statistic is mostly unheralded; nevertheless, it is huge factor to being a successful
pitcher.


TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

On the subject of tossing no hitters in each league:

I believe Pedro Martinez pitched a no hitter in the American League and a perfect game in the National, but the score of the perfect game was 0-0 after 9 innings, and he gave up a hit in the 10th.

I may have my facts wrong on this one.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Nolan Ryan and Hideo Nomo have each thrown no-hitters in both leagues


The 19th century perfect games to me are much more impressive than modern ones. Teams played on horrible fields,worse than most independent leagues teams have now,plus the fielders had no gloves and averaged 4 errors per game back then. The hitters werent the same guys who come up now and swing for the fences down 0-2 in the count and his team down 5-0 on the scoreboard thinking they can hit the first 5 run homer in major league history. The guys back then put the ball in play by slapping at it and running their 19th century butt down the first base line to beat it out. Thats why it was only accomplished twice in a span of 30 years during the 19th century,its amazing accomplishment and shouldnt be diminished because of the mound distance being changed years later

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Who's the "dinosaur" now, between us ?

Enough said for the old pitching rules and the 45' pitching distance....it's ancient history.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the STRIKEOUTS/WALKS ratio factor that I posted above ?

I'll reprise the numbers......

STRIKEOUTS/WALKS ratio......top 4 HOFer's

3.20.....Ferguson Jenkins

2.95.....Christy Mathewson

2.94.....Sandy Koufax

2.85.....Jim Bunning

The significance of this statistic is mostly unheralded; nevertheless, it is huge factor to being a successful pitcher.
This statistic solely relies on the pitcher's effectiveness. And perhaps, his battery mate....in Fergie's case Hundley.
In Matty's case Bresnahan or Meyers....in Koufax's case Roseboro ....in Bunning's case Triandos.

TED Z

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Posted By: howard

Ted, I agree w/you completely. K/BB ratio is an underappreciated stat and Fergie is an underappreciated pitcher. Not only was his home park (Wrigley) a hitter's paradise it also had no night games. Therefore Jenkins had to pitch more games than other contemporary pitchers in stifling daytime heat. Pitching 300 innings a year this surely wore him down as the season progressed.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

When I researched the Strike/Walk factor, I was surprised that Fergie came out way ahead of
the HOF pitchers.
Gee, I guess this factor demonstrates that a pitcher (like Fergie) can keep winning 20+ games,
year after year, with a mediocre team, as long as he can minimize the number of Walks that he
gives up. And, I think you'll agree that Wrigley is a batter's ballpark.

I know you'll like this story regarding Fergie.....back in the late '80s, Fergie used to set up at
BB card shows. His table was near mine at a small show in Phillipsburg, NJ.

He was a fun guy to talk with, actually he did most of the talking. And, as far as he was con-
cerned, there was never a better Catcher and friend than Randy Hundley. He went thru all my
1960's Topps cards and pulled out his own 1966 Rookie card and then every Hundley card that
I had. He didn't want to pay for them, he wanted to trade. So, I looked at all his stuff, which
was mainly an assortment of autographed cards and memorabilia. So, I picked out some of his
memorabilia in trade. By the end of the show, I realized I had another 1966 Rookie card of his,
so I had him sign it. Like I said, Fergie that day was a really fun guy to be with.

TED Z

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I love you Ted but please check with me before you post anymore trivia questions

The all-time leaders in K/BB among Hall of Famers are actually Jaun Marichal and Dennis Eckersley who are both slightly ahead of Fergie Jenkins. Before anyone says Eck was a reliever,he pitched over 3200 career innings. That list also doesn't include John Ward who made the Hall of Fame more on his total career in baseball and his hitting ability rather than pitching but he did pitch over 2400 innings and has the best K/BB ratio among Hall of Famers.

Also Drysdale has a slightly better ratio than Bunning who ranks either 7th highest or 8th if you count Ward,among hall of famers

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I love you, too John......but, why would I ever check with you before I post anymore trivia questions ?

You go out of your way to prove me wrong.....you're my instant "fact checker". This way we both benefit. I present
you with thought-provoking bits of BB trivia and you follow-up with a more complete job of the homework than I did.

Say hello to your Dad for me......Oh, and tell him, now that the nice weather is here.....I'm revving up the old T-Bird
for a drag race with him on I-295.


TED Z

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Posted By: howard

Nice story, Ted. Good to hear that Fergie was a nice, normal guy.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Sadly Ted, I didnt go out of my way to look up any of this,I just spend too much time looking at stats but I honestly didnt know John Ward had a higher K/BB ratio than anyone else.I did know Marichal and Eck supposedly had the highest and now I'm not sure if thats another case of a 19th century player not getting full credit or just they don't consider him a hall of fame pitcher. The guy with the highest ratio all-time,I think should be a hall of famer also, Tommy Bond,who only won 40 games 3 years straight and was the first triple crown winner for pitchers.


My dad has the cars ready for racing finally this weekend,you can pick your opponent,69 z28 or 67 gtx hemi

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Posted By: Gil

If facts pertain to this conversation: there never was a 45' pitching distance in MLB. In 1881 the distance was increased to fifty feet from forty feet.

Edited to add:

Although everything John said about the fields, lack of gloves, etc. is true; another major factor which makes throwing a perfect game difficult prior to 1887 is that the batter could specify a high or low pitch.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Gil,everything I've heard and read said the front of the pitchers box before 1881 was set at 45 feet from home plate. In 1876 the NL adopted that rule to start the league and it was in use years prior to that. It was changed in 1881 to 50 feet,that part is right.

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Posted By: Gil

I can not say that I know the distance between where a pitcher was allowed to release the ball and home plate at most times in the nineteenth century. The geometries and physical locations are identifiable. But the pitcher's box size and the amount of running and other pre-release pitching theatrics which were tolerated seems to vary, primarilly in the early years.

I have not been able to identify my resource from which I thought the actual distance was 40' prior to it being lengthened. But I did discover one which agreed with your statement of 45'. Although the pitcher's box dimensions appear to have changed frequently, my impression is that the changes were solely to the back of the box. And once home plate was moved into fair territory, it stayed there.

So, could I be mistaken? Yes, as always. I will be on the lookout on this subject, and if I find an indication of 40' again, I will check carefully what the caveats are.

Thank you.
Gil

PS:

Daniel Adams, the first chairman of the Committee on Rules and Regulations, was the man who claimed to have set the original 45 foot distance. John Montgomery Ward, who pitched in the major leagues 1878-84, supposedly took credit in later years for the innovation of the pitchers' mound.